Lpg

[VijayA]

Evening I came across a post on the Jag forum and felt it may be of interest.

The link is http://www.amrautos.co.uk/index.php/lpg-systems

I do not know this company nor do I have a lpg converted car but have read the recent posts on here.

Still havent managed to unearth my LS from under her covers...I will...honest

Hope the info is of some use

[willskoda]

Interesting topic. My LS is far far cheaper to run on gas than petrol

[ManicMark]

Seems the lexus range is ok apart from the rx300 I did 60,000 miles on my last ls 400 on lpg no probs & my mate did about 140,000 on his mark2, My weekly fuel bill is down from £80 to £45 & I drive a bit more spirited on lpg than I did on petrol.

[Bluesman]

I have sent the link to Leon at Profess Gas that many members on here have had their cars converted by.

Will post it as soon as he contacts me.

I did get a feeling of sour grapes reading the article.

I am at present paying 70p. which is way lower than they were quoting. Mike

[Profess LPG LTD]

Hello LOC, Please give me time to read through the article thoroughly.

I would like to mention a 2 things that i picked up whilst browsing through the article.

The price of LPG has dropped significantly not increased. Right now you can get LPG for as little as 64p in South Wales (dropped from 73p). The valve seat recession problem exists as far back as from the 1960's, when the grade of alloy changed. Also a major reason for it was when Petrol became unleaded. Every new alternative engine lubrication company increased their sales by approx 200%. LPG is keeping these companies running at the moment. I have re wrote this post about 10 times with at least 10 times more information, I cannot confidently post on the go. I would rather hit this thread with as much information as the article and with the evidence to boot.

Bluesman, thank you for bringing this article to my attention.

In my personal opinion and not a company statement, I think this is a company stating that they cannot compete with the lowered profit margin of a conversion and the climate that we live in today. They simply cannot fill their books with any over priced, overly rated, and non competitive conversions.

:) watch this space in the next few days.... I am off to sort out the HSE over in Chesterfield tomorrow, may need 2 days to respond to everything.

[brendangeorge]

Evening I came across a post on the Jag forum and felt it may be of interest.

The link is http://www.amrautos.co.uk/index.php/lpg-systems

I do not know this company nor do I have a lpg converted car but have read the recent posts on here.

Still havent managed to unearth my LS from under her covers...I will...honest

Hope the info is of some use

There are plenty of errors and wrong assumptions on the link. The price of LPG quoted is wrong - especially up North - in my area near the motroways it is upto 84p per litre but 74/75 is more normal. When I went to Twickenham it was 69p there and 65p at Beaconsfield services. This means the poor economics quoted are BS at best.

The challenge with LPG may be the burn temperature - it is hotter than petrol - but to claim that the petrol injected cools the valves is a bit of poetic licence. Most LPG convertible cars have inlet manifolds where the petrol is injected - I am sure we could find a lot of thermodynamic analysis that shows this cooling argument is not sensible. Manufacturers seem to be moving to DGI or some combination of DGI and manifold to meet emission and consumption demands/requirements which will probably be the factor that kills of LPG conversion for new cars. Perhaps the LPG conversion guys can comment here.

All cars had to be made with harder/more durable vavle seats when unleaded petrol was introduced because the lead in petrol was the additive that protected them. The comment about additves in petrol lubricating and reducing valve seat wear seems interesting - the additives are there to keep the engine clean and stop deposits causing valve damage. I know two people who ( one MK4 LS400 and one face lift 430) who had valve seat damage and many of us who have done 100K miles with no problems.

Could it be that some engine manufacturers are reducing their costs by changing materials and some engines are more vulnerable to the hotter LPG burn - if that is the case don't tell us that LPG is to blame. There is a list of cars that may have problems on the site but no other data - most important being how many of each model unless I missed something. Without knowing if the cars were maintained properly etc it is tough to make an analysis. It would be really interesting to find out the real reason why AMS have stopped carrying out conversions.

It will be great to see what Leon has to say because I know nothing.

Bren (LPG user and biggot)

[mikesands]

Sorry guys, but as far as the economy section of that article is concerned, it is spot on in my opinion. I had calculated a 10 month payback for my installation but it took 2 and a bit years.

Yes it's true that in some places LPG is cheap but if you are driving round the country you have to take what price you can get. Usually where the LPG is cheap, the unleaded is cheap also.

I see that Profess are now posting and I would be interested to hear how they overcome the 27% less energy in LPG problem. To my simple mind the only way that an LPG conversion could produce anything better than 27% worse mpg would be to lean off the fuelling substantially. For all I know this would be perfectly acceptable, but if that is what is done then we should be aware of it.

I must admit that now my LS430 is dead and been replaced by an RX400H, I am enjoying the reduced fill-up times and not having to traipse down to Asda to fill up

Mike

[Bluesman]

Evening I came across a post on the Jag forum and felt it may be of interest.

The link is http://www.amrautos.co.uk/index.php/lpg-systems

I do not know this company nor do I have a lpg converted car but have read the recent posts on here.

Still havent managed to unearth my LS from under her covers...I will...honest

Hope the info is of some use

There are plenty of errors and wrong assumptions on the link. The price of LPG quoted is wrong - especially up North - in my area near the motroways it is upto 84p per litre but 74/75 is more normal. When I went to Twickenham it was 69p there and 65p at Beaconsfield services. This means the poor economics quoted are BS at best.

The challenge with LPG may be the burn temperature - it is hotter than petrol - but to claim that the petrol injected cools the valves is a bit of poetic licence. Most LPG convertible cars have inlet manifolds where the petrol is injected - I am sure we could find a lot of thermodynamic analysis that shows this cooling argument is not sensible. Manufacturers seem to be moving to DGI or some combination of DGI and manifold to meet emission and consumption demands/requirements which will probably be the factor that kills of LPG conversion for new cars. Perhaps the LPG conversion guys can comment here.

All cars had to be made with harder/more durable vavle seats when unleaded petrol was introduced because the lead in petrol was the additive that protected them. The comment about additves in petrol lubricating and reducing valve seat wear seems interesting - the additives are there to keep the engine clean and stop deposits causing valve damage. I know two people who ( one MK4 LS400 and one face lift 430) who had valve seat damage and many of us who have done 100K miles with no problems.

Could it be that some engine manufacturers are reducing their costs by changing materials and some engines are more vulnerable to the hotter LPG burn - if that is the case don't tell us that LPG is to blame. There is a list of cars that may have problems on the site but no other data - most important being how many of each model unless I missed something. Without knowing if the cars were maintained properly etc it is tough to make an analysis. It would be really interesting to find out the real reason why AMS have stopped carrying out conversions.

It will be great to see what Leon has to say because I know nothing.

Bren (LPG user and biggot)

Go tell em Brenda. I am in awe of your knowledge. Mike

[Bluesman]

Sorry guys, but as far as the economy section of that article is concerned, it is spot on in my opinion. I had calculated a 10 month payback for my installation but it took 2 and a bit years.

Yes it's true that in some places LPG is cheap but if you are driving round the country you have to take what price you can get. Usually where the LPG is cheap, the unleaded is cheap also.

I see that Profess are now posting and I would be interested to hear how they overcome the 27% less energy in LPG problem. To my simple mind the only way that an LPG conversion could produce anything better than 27% worse mpg would be to lean off the fuelling substantially. For all I know this would be perfectly acceptable, but if that is what is done then we should be aware of it.

I must admit that now my LS430 is dead and been replaced by an RX400H, I am enjoying the reduced fill-up times and not having to traipse down to Asda to fill up

Mike

Hi Mike, I sent the article to Leon at Profess.

My local fillup is 69.9p, 70p for arguments sake. Most of my travelling is within 125 miles of where I live and the most I have paid recently is 72p (71.9) I know where most of these filling stations are but normally never need to use them as I always fill up locally before I make a journey.

About 10 years ago I had a Mercedes estate W124 2litre, it had 90,000 miles on it when I bought the car and when I sold the car it had 260,000 miles on her with no engine problems and is still going strong to this day approching 300,000 and still on LPG.

The article is full of holes but I will wait any further comment until Leon has got back to the forum. Mike

[brendangeorge]

Sorry guys, but as far as the economy section of that article is concerned, it is spot on in my opinion. I had calculated a 10 month payback for my installation but it took 2 and a bit years.

Yes it's true that in some places LPG is cheap but if you are driving round the country you have to take what price you can get. Usually where the LPG is cheap, the unleaded is cheap also.

I see that Profess are now posting and I would be interested to hear how they overcome the 27% less energy in LPG problem. To my simple mind the only way that an LPG conversion could produce anything better than 27% worse mpg would be to lean off the fuelling substantially. For all I know this would be perfectly acceptable, but if that is what is done then we should be aware of it.

I must admit that now my LS430 is dead and been replaced by an RX400H, I am enjoying the reduced fill-up times and not having to traipse down to Asda to fill up

Mike

Hi Mike, I sent the article to Leon at Profess.

My local fillup is 69.9p, 70p for arguments sake. Most of my travelling is within 125 miles of where I live and the most I have paid recently is 72p (71.9) I know where most of these filling stations are but normally never need to use them as I always fill up locally before I make a journey.

About 10 years ago I had a Mercedes estate W124 2litre, it had 90,000 miles on it when I bought the car and when I sold the car it had 260,000 miles on her with no engine problems and is still going strong to this day approching 300,000 and still on LPG.

The article is full of holes but I will wait any further comment until Leon has got back to the forum. Mike

If LPG converted cars were going down like flies I think we would have heard about it. LPG is very popular all over Europe - I believe that in Italy you used to be able to buy a Lexus from a dealer with a conversion fitted. On the back of a fag packet I save about 40% by using LPG and if I drove more economically I bet I could do better.

To be fair the AMS web site does say not all cars suffer with problems when converted to LPG and if you look at the list it does not have that many cars on it. They talk about Vauxhall cars on the site but there are none on the problem list (a few big Septic GM lumps by the look of things). The data they present is from Prins so is this a list that they have circulated to installers warning them of potential problems?

Bren

[mikesands]

Hi Bren,

I agree with you on a lot of what you say - My LPG car functioned perfectly for the 40k miles before its suspension collapsed, and after the first couple of fillups of the special valve cooler drip bottle, I never bothered with it again.

I also agree that if LPG car engines were seizing, we'd hear a great deal about it, but no-one has ever given me a good explanation as to how an LPG conversion overcomes the inherent problem of there being 27% less energy in a litre of LPG compared to petrol. And as it happened, my car was 25-30% worse on mpg than when I ran it on petrol. If people really are getting better mpg than this then how?

Mike

[Bluesman]

I think we should wait until Leon gets back to us. Mike

[brendangeorge]

Hi Bren,

I agree with you on a lot of what you say - My LPG car functioned perfectly for the 40k miles before its suspension collapsed, and after the first couple of fillups of the special valve cooler drip bottle, I never bothered with it again.

I also agree that if LPG car engines were seizing, we'd hear a great deal about it, but no-one has ever given me a good explanation as to how an LPG conversion overcomes the inherent problem of there being 27% less energy in a litre of LPG compared to petrol. And as it happened, my car was 25-30% worse on mpg than when I ran it on petrol. If people really are getting better mpg than this then how?

Mike

Hi Mike

You are spot on with a litre for litre comparison. Running on LPG I obtain 16.3 to 20 MPG - running on petrol for 120K miles my average was 22MPG for a mix of driving - as you point out LPG has 73% of the energy value of petrol. That said if you then take into account the price difference between LPG and petrol you can make a meaningful comparison. To make it simple best case I can get 400 miles from an 84l tank of petrol and 272 miles from 65l of LPG. If you do the calculation I am saving 36.8% of the cost of what I would pay to drive on petrol if I run on LPG.

I used £1.34 per litre for petrol and 74p for LPG so the figures will vary by a lot - my last LPG up North was only 65 per litre - so a 30% to 40% saving is very real for me.

Bren

[mikesands]

Thank you Bren - at last someone who is quoting the realistic LPG consumption figures. Exactly the figures I was getting in general mixed driving. On a run I could get 30mpg on petrol and just 22mpg on gas.

I did get about 10-15% improvement by driving permanently in snow mode, but it wasn't much fun, and anyway it provided the same mpg improvement if driven on petrol.

Mike

[Profess LPG LTD]

Hello LOC.

I am sorry to say that i am still yet to read through the article. The HSE went well in Chesterfield. We should open the doors to the public very soon.

What we are going to do is send all of the relevant information to Strange Strange and Gardner. A reputable forensic engineering firm that deals with the courts, accidents and of course liability claims within the motor trade industry. We are willing to pay them for their non biased report on the matters that are suggested to be LPG related etc. I will read through the article tomorrow afternoon and present a statement tomorrow evening. We at profess LPG LTD have faced many accusations regarding the LPG and only feel it to be fair by getting an associate of the Chartered Engineering Council (CEng) to give their views and concerns regarding the matters of before us. If we were to only produce our statement against other competitors, it may be classed as tit for tat and hold no foundation for criticism.

Anyway i will stop babbling now and get back to my BBQ (I need to make the most of the weather).

Sorry for the delay guys and gals.

Best regards

Leon

Profess LPG LTD.

[jpjsavage]

I filled up my LS400 in Crewe (Morrisons) yesterday. 64.9p/litre. Very happy with that. Around £30 for a full refill and will get about 220 miles out of that if I drive sensibly.

[mikeyv]

I filled up my LS400 in Crewe (Morrisons) yesterday. 64.9p/litre. Very happy with that. Around £30 for a full refill and will get about 220 miles out of that if I drive sensibly.

I've just filled up at the Shell garage for 65.9p/Litre, also around 30 quid and also around 200 miles worth, so roughly 35-40 mpg equivalent, which is fine by me, given the size of engine and performance of the car.

That said, I do think the lpg conversion industry has a long and patchy history, with many things glossed over in the sales blurb, along with exaggerated claims and a lot of poor workmanship.

I'm also doubtful for their future, given the complexity of the latest vehicles.

It's very important to get the job done properly, by a good converter, so I welcome the presence of Profess on this board, and was very impressed with the service they provided when a recent job went wrong.

I didn't use them for my conversion, but would certainly consider them for any future work.

[brendangeorge]

I filled up my LS400 in Crewe (Morrisons) yesterday. 64.9p/litre. Very happy with that. Around £30 for a full refill and will get about 220 miles out of that if I drive sensibly.

Lovely stuff JPJ and Michael - I can get 272 miles from 65.39 liters but usually quote 250 from 65 - the tank in my 430 is 82l and I can use about 65l - a little more in the summer and less in the winter. I see you have a 400 - what size tank do you have and how many miles do you get from its usable volume? I was looking to compare the 400 to the 430 - my gas system is a BRC.

It looks as if you chaps get about 4.3 miles per litre and I get about 4.15 from the back of my fag packet. Does this sound correct?

On petrol I get 4.8 miles per litre - looks like getting on for a 40% saving as well. Very cool.

Cheers

Bren

[mikeyv]

I filled up my LS400 in Crewe (Morrisons) yesterday. 64.9p/litre. Very happy with that. Around £30 for a full refill and will get about 220 miles out of that if I drive sensibly.

Lovely stuff JPJ and Michael - I can get 272 miles from 65.39 liters but usually quote 250 from 65 - the tank in my 430 is 82l and I can use about 65l - a little more in the summer and less in the winter. I see you have a 400 - what size tank do you have and how many miles do you get from its usable volume? I was looking to compare the 400 to the 430 - my gas system is a BRC.

It looks as if you chaps get about 4.3 miles per litre and I get about 4.15 from the back of my fag packet. Does this sound correct?

On petrol I get 4.8 miles per litre - looks like getting on for a 40% saving as well. Very cool.

Cheers

Bren

Hi Bren, if I'm honest, the figures I posted are about as precise as I get on fuel consumption.

I've never been one to worry about consumption, as long as it doesn't suddenly change for the worse, in which case I'll investigate.

If you choose a Ford 3 Litre Capri or Granada, as I have done previously, let alone a 4 Litre V8, you're buying for pleasure over economy, so LPG is just a bonus.

I once bought with economy as a priority - a Sierra diesel - never, ever, ever again - truly dreadful car - mogaddon on wheels.

Life is too short to waste large chunks of it driving boring cars.

Enjoy your big petrol engines while you still can is my motto.

Oh, nearly forgot, my tank is 68L I think, and struggles to take 60L from bone dry, more usually 55 ish.

Given my time again, I'd have accepted a slightly raised boot floor for a bit of extra fuel capacity.

[brendangeorge]

Hi Michael

I am 100% with you - I would have gone with the loss of 1" of boot height to get a 100l tank in if my installer had given me the option (especially with hindsight) the extra 50 miles or so range would be very useful - a good thing to consider if you are thining of converting. I carry a spare because of the shocking state of the roads today and I am not keen on tyre weld unless as a last resort, so my boot is almost full anyway.

I am a Yorkshireman so a tight git by definition so cannot completely support the "I would drive it anyway proposition" :( - who am I kidding.

I expect to be in a 460 in a year, or two at the most, so will be buying petrol then :)

Bren

[Chris Skelton]

So....am I missing something?

If LPG only produces 73% of the power, it takes MORE LPG to run......NOT that the car has less BHP?

so the injectors send more lpg in to compensate?

and, Brendan, if you WERE a 'tight' Yorkshire person, you'd be in a Micra? (-: Enjoy the cruising!

[Bluesman]

I have an 80 litre tank which allows me to fill to around 74 litres and I can get 330 miles per fill which equates up to around 20/21 mpg, I can get more LPG when I am doing long motorway journeys.

Those figures make me a very happy bunny. Mike

[mikesands]

Yep Mike - that's what I was getting and I could refill with 74 litres (Think mine was a 90 litre tank). It did raise the boot floor by an inch which was at first annoying, but never really caused any problems.

Mike

[mikeyv]

deleted as I messed up quote

[mikeyv]

I expect to be in a 460 in a year, or two at the most, so will be buying petrol then :)

Bren

They are an impressive looking car aren't they?

Bit worried about all the gizmos though, as the car gets older, similarly with the 430.