300H Or 250?

[rayaans]

Hmm well, in a dilemma now! My wife's car is in need of a change. Shes currently got a 2005 Mercedes C220 CDI Elegance. Now I would have swapped it for a new Merc but after driving one, we both couldnt get to terms with it. Its a nice car but, nothing stood out. Bit of a bore in my opinion.

Then, I saw the IS while popping into the Lexus dealership to pick up some rubber mats for the winter. However, the problem is, we cant decide on the 250 or the 300h. The car barely gets driven, itll do about 3k miles a year and I cant really justify the extra 4k (after discount) for a 300h.

We're thinking of a Mesa red/Rose red combo with NAV and ML. Any issues with the 300h or the 250?

[Roger Bill]

Hi, I've had brief test drives in both the new 250 & 300h. I'm planning on changing my 2009 IS250 with a 300h early next year, but I can see the choice would be more evenly balanced given your low mileage. For what they're worth here are a few thoughts which I hope might help.

Both powertrains should now be pretty well proven; the Lexus ES300h and the Toyota Camry both use similar hybrid engines and gearboxes and, while neither are available here, I believe they've sold well in the USA. The new IS250 has essentially the same powertrain as my IS and, while it's a smooth engine & gearbox, it's now rather dated in terms of performance & emissions. There are rumours that Lexus is developing a 4 cylinder turbocharged 2 litre engine which could be a replacement in the not too distant future for the IS250 engine.

I've been watching closely for any reported problems with the new IS but so far the only complaints on here & www.clublexus.com have been a couple of minor rattles and some slow response with the audio and navigation; these issues seem to be more common with the USA media systems and which Lexus are addressing with software upgrades.

To offset the higher cost of the 300h there should be significant savings in fuel, road tax and, I would guess the residual values should be better. However, it's the smooth, quiet and refined driving experience of the 300h that has me hooked whereas I thought the 250 was good but not that much noticeably better than my current car. If you haven't already done so I'd recommend a back to back test drive in both, as so much is down to personal preference. Also have you compared the F Sport with the Luxury or Premier alternatives? Hope you have fun making your choice.

[rayaans]

Well its going to be an F Sport. Red/red, possibly the only one in the country in this combo. I thought the 250 suited the sporty characteristics more, especially with the growl once it got going. The thing I dont realise is, how come the 300h seems slower than the 250 when it has more power, even though the torque is immediate?

[Roger Bill]

Both Mesa Red exterior and the red leather interior are really nice.

I guess the extra weight of the hybrid Battery and equipment would account for the 0.3 second difference in 0-62mph acceleration times. However, I think 0-62 times are somewhat theoretical because you have to be fairly brutal with a car to achieve those times. Also have you seen the earlier topic in this forum "Lexus vs Mercedes Performance Figures" and the videos of an IS300h beating a Merc C250 CDI? The difference in subjective acceleration feel of the IS300h compared with traditional automatic gearboxes has been widely discussed by owners in this forum.

[Clearline]

I have the 300h and it is not slow when needed. Although it certainly sounds a lot different if you are looking for engine volume, it's a lot quieter and a very relaxing car to drive. The CVT grearbox is nice and smooth too. All that said when you want to set-up quick you can.

[rayaans]

I have the 300h and it is not slow when needed. Although it certainly sounds a lot different if you are looking for engine volume, it's a lot quieter and a very relaxing car to drive. The CVT grearbox is nice and smooth too. All that said when you want to set-up quick you can.

I understand what you mean as I have a hybrid now. Im just wondering what the 2.5 4 pot sounds like compared to the 3.5 v6 in my RX. Also, something me and my wife just discussed last night. Will the IS300h be better in the snow due to the extra weight at the back? Current C220 is actually pretty scary sometimes. Wont go up my driveway at all (about 20 degree incline).

[Clearline]

The IS300h has a 'snow' mode but it is rear wheel drive and the Lexus sales man actually said it is not very good in the snow. I have not had to drive it in the snow yet.

The engine noise is not aggressive sounding at all, even at high revs. Although the outside sound is well dampened. There is also a 'fake' engine sound option in the *****-pit but I personally don't like it. More details here: http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/84006-engine-sound-simulation/

[Silver Arrow]

If you're only doing that many miles, have you (seriously!!) considered getting a classic car? lol

I've seen a Merc SL on Pistonheads, 1990's, 280SL, with just over 2000 (thats right) on the clock for £17995. It's not even run in....

EDIT - even thats gone now!!

[DJP]

The extra weight due to the batteries won't, IMHO, make any difference. My IS250 had a full set of golf clubs and a trolley in the boot and it was worse than useless in the snow. The "snow" button just starts the car off in 2nd rather than 1st, and make no difference at all to the drivability or not.

I'll try the 300h just to see but suspect the best place for the car will be on the drive until any snow thaws.

I suppose I should add that winter tyres probably makes a big difference but I don't have any of those.

[rayaans]

I recently found last winter that sticking a few 25kg bags of rock salt and coal really does make a difference. Have about 7 in total I think. I might go and test drive them in the winter when the snow falls!

[Silver Arrow]

I used to knock the tyre pressures down to about 27psi all round for the snow in my IS220d and it did improve it, I could actually potter around. Last year, for the first time (having been a complete sceptic) I shelled out on winter tyres - and boy are they worth it!! I've gone from being a total sceptic to a total convert!

I've even got myself a set of GS 300 SE-L (18 inch) rims for the winter tyres to go onto - as soon as the weather "turns".

[DJP]

I used to knock the tyre pressures down to about 27psi all round for the snow in my IS220d and it did improve it, I could actually potter around. Last year, for the first time (having been a complete sceptic) I shelled out on winter tyres - and boy are they worth it!! I've gone from being a total sceptic to a total convert!

I've even got myself a set of GS 300 SE-L (18 inch) rims for the winter tyres to go onto - as soon as the weather "turns".

That's really interesting Silver Arrow, I hate the thought of being carless and relying on public transport. Roughly how much did they cost you? What impact do they have on your driving experience and mpg etc during "normal" weather conditions?

[ColinBarber]

The extra weight due to the batteries won't, IMHO, make any difference. My IS250 had a full set of golf clubs and a trolley in the boot and it was worse than useless in the snow. The "snow" button just starts the car off in 2nd rather than 1st, and make no difference at all to the drivability or not.

The 300h Battery pack is around 50 Kg so probably quite a bit more than some golf clubs but it probably isn't enough solve the issue. Rear wheel drive cars are just not good in the snow and ice unless you have winter or snow tyres.

[Silver Arrow]

Not meaning to hi-jack this thread - but to answer the question posed:

OK - so being a total sceptic and a skint flint (lol) I wanted to spend the minimum, but didn't want budget tyres, so I bought 2 p/w's from eBay - knowing they would go on the back. I managed to get 2 Pirelli Sottozero's with 6mm on them for £88+£10 delivery, so call it £100. I could only get "V" rated tyres as winters don't come in anything higher (or didn't last year). The summer tyres are "Y" rated. I went for the sottozero's as they are "XL" - extra load and it just seemed to me that stronger sidewalls must help....

I kept looking on eBay for another pair but didn't really relish the thought of putting 2nd hand tyres on the front - risking a blow out didn't appeal! So I then went for 2 new ones for the front - same pattern is recommended - I did an on-line search and got a pair from mytyres.co.uk - £394 delivered - so £500ish in total. I got a local indy fitter who charged me £30 to put all 4 on - p/w's on the rear and new ones on the front.

The temperature was about 3deg C and dry when I put them on, and immediately the grip and turn in was noticeably more precise. Very quiet (quieter than the Dunlop Sport Maxx summers that were on the car, with only 3000 miles on them). So I thought - OK - this is not too bad. I had heard that they are noisier etc - but they weren't at all.

Grip in the wet is amazing. I mean really amazing. Especially in cold damp stretches of our estate where the camber always made all rear wheel drive cars I've owned get the traction light flickering. But not with these babies. And even better knowing these were the part worns on the driven wheels at the back!

Snow - Well, as we all know, last year was bad....and the Lexus? No issues at all! Where I would have left the GS (and previous BMW and IS in the garage) I could tackle the roads with confidence. The only time I got caught out was on sheet ice, when to be fair I was just going too fast and the tyres locked up, but as soon as I released the brakes I was able to steer!

This year, as I stated before, I have managed to get hold of some GS 300 SE-L rims (the 18" 5 wide spoke ones) for £125 off eBay and am just waiting for early November - I'll get the tyres on there and then onto the car. That way I can just change them over when I need to.

The good thing is that I can always sell the complete set on again in the future if I do sell the car, or include them in the sale.

Economy - to be honest if anything it would have been in single %'s, and hardly noticeable. May be 1-5% worse if that.

In warmer temp's - these are supposed to work better when it's < 7 DegC, but there were days when I drove in sun, and even when the temp's started to rise above 10 degC I really couldn't tell any difference. It's possible that the rubber was wearing more, but it wasn't at the expense of driving experience. When I was enquiring, several tyre fitters stated that the modern winter tyres can be used all year around - especially the Hankook iCepts, for some reason. 3 fitters recommended them for all year around use.

Insurance - told the company and they were happy for me to use them. this year, it remains to be seen if they will see another set of rims as an upgrade....but if it costs me £20 it'll still be worth it.

So the total hardware cost = £625 so far and I wouldn't be without winter tyres again. And that's from a original sceptic! SO guys if you are thinking about, and can afford it - just do it. The summer tyres will sit in the garage and not be wearing, so actually that helps with affordability. getting additional rims (which can be sold off again afterwards) helps too.

[DJP]

Thank you Silver Arrow, extremely helpful and apologies to the OP for going off topic.

[rayaans]

Thank you Silver Arrow, extremely helpful and apologies to the OP for going off topic.

No worries, its still very relevant due to the car being rwd.