Dealer Or No Dealer?

[willydoit]

Hi all,

Am looking for a good example of a late 2005 or newer sc430 that I can try to maintain as new a condition as possible as we will be keeping the car for a number of years hopefully and will probably cover onlybaround 5k miles a year? A bit of advice would be appreciated. Faced with the following options which would you recommend please.

1) black 2007 car with 90k on the clock from lexus dealership with 12 months 5+ Lexus warranty

Or

2) silver 2007 car from a non lexus dealer with half the mileage of the above car with full lexus service history but probably no warranty beyond statutory 3 months provided by UK Law or a standard used car warranty with limited coverage.

The dilemma, is it better to have a higher mileage lexus approved car with warranty or a much lower mileage car from a non lexus dealer with possibly no more warranty than the statutory 3 months provided by UK law.

The sc430 seems to have far more potential failure issues than my ls400 which hasnt cost me anything beyond tyres, pads and a Battery in 10 years so I am wary about potential future huge bills.

Advice from the experience of sc430 owners seems to be invaluable at this stage.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

[ColinBarber]

the same price? You can always purchase a 2 year warranty from Lexus for the low mileage one.

[willydoit]

Hi Colin,

thanks for the reply, The silver lower mileage car is at a Toyota dealership so there may be options re warranties, the lower mileage car is older being 2006 but is listed at £2,000 more than the 2007 model at the Lexus Dealers, I have been advised this morning that on the 2007 vehicle from the Lexus dealer the warranty can be extended by a further two years for around a grand. The possibility of 3 year Lexus warranty and peace of mind really is making me consider making compromises on the colour and mileage knowing how expensive these can be when things start to go wrong. That said we would be lucky to cover 15k miles in three years but that said anything can go wrong at any time.

Lexus dealer has advised that some paintwork has been done to the car, I dont know to what standard but assume it has to be spot on to qualify as Lexus Approved otherwise I assume I have some redress via Lexus GB if the car ultimately turns out to have issues which would not qualify it for Approved Lexus used car status at the time of sale.

Feedback from anyone with a black SC430 with over 90k miles would be appreciated especially in respect of how the bodywork has stood up to the tests of time.

[ColinBarber]

Yes that is correct, and what I was referring to. A two year Lexus warranty for the SC is £1,095. You can purchase that from a Lexus dealer for the sliver one if you wanted - they would just have to do an inspection to make sure everything is working at the start of the warranty to stop people taking out a warranty at the time of needing a repair.

The only thing to consider is the warranty T&Cs insist you have your vehicle serviced at a Lexus dealer in accordance with the service schedule, in your case every 12 months.

[willydoit]

Hi Colin,

That's worth knowing, thanks. Will look into that, with it being a Toyota dealership they may have contacts to be able to arrange that, if they do it prior to sale then I dont have any worries about Lexus "finding issues" they want to fix before allowing the warranty. Have emailed the Toyota Dealer so will see what they come back with as there is still the consideration that the Black one is a year newer, two grand cheaper and would have a total of 3 years warranty. Probably find that by the time I make a decision they will both have been sold :-(

[Neil E]

I would say buy whichever car you prefer, you should be on safe ground with a Toyota dealer, after all, they do make them. In Japan the SC430 was called the Toyota Soarer. There are a few subtle differences in the model but it's the same manufacturer.

I have a 2006 dark grey metallic SC430 and the paintwork appeared to be to the same Toyota/Lexus standard as usual.

[willydoit]

hHi Neil,

Thanks for that, would much prefer to deal with a Lexus dealership to get all the reassurance that should come from that but there have been just a couple of issues that concern me, for example I was originally corresponding with one of the Lexus dealers salesmen about the car, and he agreed to check some items on the car for me as they are around 200 miles away from me. I sent a list of items that people have reported issues with such as speakers and amp, bubbling on roof, water ingress into the boot, trim condition etc, admitedly there were about 25 items but nothing that wasnt easy to check or that, I wouldnt check myself if able to. Two days later got an email saying the car was sold by someone else while he was checking it for me.

Now I know they have had the car quite a while and are even thinking of moving the car to another of their dealers to try to sell as they have been unable to sell it so far. It also seems the car has been reduced in price over the past weeks, if that is the case you have to wonder why it hasnt sold.

Long story short, turns out that either the salesman lied or was just rubbish at his job as the car hadnt been sold at all as a couple of days later my wife not being aware that I had been discussing that car, contacted them, spoke with a different salesman to be told yest the car was still available. Call me cynical if you want but I am concerned as to why the original salesman lied to me when asked to check some of the known issues on these cars? My concern is that the car may suffer from one or more of the known issues and I will be either wasting time and money going to see a car that isnt right or worse still buying it and finding there are issues which arent covered on the warranty.

Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that his being told the car had been sold was a missunderstanding, why not contact me again to resume the potential sale once aware that the car was still available? A £13k sale may not be much to a lexus dealership but I thought the idea was to sell the cars to the customers.

The car in question has done almost 87k which is higher mileage than I wanted and when asking the new salesman about their doing cam belt change before sale he said it isnt due until 100k yet lexus's own website states clearly that 90k service is major service which includes timing belt replacement.

I honestly feel that it is like dealing with a back street garage and having to watch for all the strokes they might pull rather than feeling relaxed and confident that everything must be okay because its a Lexus authorised used car from a Lexus dealers. Admitedly, if purchased I wouldnt be needing to rely on them for servicing, warranty work etc and I am assuming that if there were any issues with the car which meant that it shouldnt have qualified as a lexus approved vehicle that I would have some amount of redress through Lexus GB but I am getting too old to have all the hassle.

Anyway, sorry to go on about this, logic tells me that buying from a lexus dealer Should be the preferred choice and provide troube free ownership with no hassles. Is a Lexus approved used vehicle from a lexus dealer with three year Lexus warranty a bulletproof way to by a Lexus SC430? have people bought from Lexus themselves and still ended up with a problem vehicle or am I just being overly cautious and paranoid? As I have mentioned before, its not my preffered colour and mileage is higher than I would like but I am willing to make these concessions to have what I previously thought was an advantage of having a lexus approved car with warranty.

Others opinions and experiences would be most welcome.

[ColinBarber]

Now I know they have had the car quite a while and are even thinking of moving the car to another of their dealers to try to sell as they have been unable to sell it so far. It also seems the car has been reduced in price over the past weeks, if that is the case you have to wonder why it hasnt sold.

I wouldn't read too much into that. The SC isn't that popular and secondhand vehicles with V8s in them don't sell quickly. You will see LS and GS vehicles sitting with a Lexus dealer for 6+ months before being sold, nothing wrong with them. This is one reason why you get such poor trade-in prices from Lexus dealers, they factor in the vehicle hanging around for a long time, depreciating in value month on month - they have to reduce the price to maintain a fair market value.

[ColinBarber]

The car in question has done almost 87k which is higher mileage than I wanted and when asking the new salesman about their doing cam belt change before sale he said it isnt due until 100k yet lexus's own website states clearly that 90k service is major service which includes timing belt replacement.

A vehicle of that age would have 10k service intervals, therefore the timing belt would be due at either 100k miles or 10 years, whichever is sooner. If a service is due within 3 months or 3,000 miles I'd expect them to do it as part of the sale, otherwise they wouldn't.

Do you know when it was last serviced? We could make an assumption that it was done at 80k miles and therefore one is due soon but things often aren't that clear cut.

[willydoit]

Hi Colin,

that on its own isnt the concern, its more the fact that if the car has been there a while, or if they are difficult to move why lie to me about it still being available when asked to check/confirm certain items on the car, and if there was a misunderstanding at the dealership as to whether the car had been sold, why not contact me afterwards? I was and still am what should be considered a hot prospect for a £13k sale . If the salesman worked for me and lost me a £13k sale he would be looking for another job, either the salesman is terrible at his job or something isnt right and I am finding it difficult to shake the concern that there could be an issue with the car that they dont want to admit to or lie about when asked outright and maybe prefer to wait until the next punter comes along who may not ask that question. Honestly it is only the theoretical safety net that should accompany a lexus approved used car from a dealer with the chance of 3 year parts and labour warranty that is keeping me interested, any other garage and I would have walked away straight away.

[willydoit]

The car in question has done almost 87k which is higher mileage than I wanted and when asking the new salesman about their doing cam belt change before sale he said it isnt due until 100k yet lexus's own website states clearly that 90k service is major service which includes timing belt replacement.

A vehicle of that age would have 10k service intervals, therefore the timing belt would be due at either 100k miles or 10 years, whichever is sooner. If a service is due within 3 months or 3,000 miles I'd expect them to do it as part of the sale, otherwise they wouldn't.

Do you know when it was last serviced? We could make an assumption that it was done at 80k miles and therefore one is due soon but things often aren't that clear cut.

Not sure but will clarify on Monday, someone has already complained about this dealership agreeing to service a car prior to sale, I assume a major service was due on the car but they new owner found out later after inspection at another lexus dealers that only a minor service had been done. There are always two sides to each story so have to take it with a pinch of salt. I dont want to spend what will amount to14K on a car which I will have to spend another £1k on in a short space of time. I dont think its unreasonable to ask for the belt and servicing to be done prior to sale, after all costs to them are going to be much cheaper than it will be to me. Or am I being unreasonable? I dont know how much investment they have in the vehicle and margin available to play with as the car has already been reduced.

[ColinBarber]

I'd walk away. It isn't the colour you want, it has more miles than you want and you have doubts about the dealership.

Check with your local Lexus dealer about a Lexus extended warranty. Provided you have FLSH you should be able to purchase a 2 year warranty, even if you obtain a vehicle privately. They may not charge you for an inspection, or they may insist on a service.

For what it's worth I don't think the salesman is covering something up. If it was a family run secondhand trader/dealer then maybe but if the Lexus franchise dealership puts a vehicle up for sale then the salesmen wouldn't be accountable for anything wrong with the vehicle, they should just be targeted on selling. I suspect he was either a poor salesman, thought his time was being wasted, or he is too busy selling more expensive vehicles along with finance packages which earn him more commission.

[willydoit]

Hi Colin,

You are probably right about the salesman, will mull it all over during the rest of the weekend, Salesman that I am dealing with at the moment seems honest and helpful enough. Have made costly mistakes in the past by being too trusting which is why I am attracted by the opportunity to by from a Lexus dealership. Probably me being too suspicious.

Thanks again for your input and advice.

[royoftherovers]

Has Willydoit seen the SC at Lexus Hedge End near Southampton ?

Regards

John

[ColinBarber]

Personally I'd only recommend a facelift model with the 6 speed transmission.

[willydoit]

Hi John,

Thanks, I have seen that but it is a 2004, I was particularly wanting one with the Bluetooth and later sat nav and if possible the 6 speed box although I have been told that there is little if any difference between the 5 and 6 speed versions (dont know if that is true) so have considered some late 2005 cars.

Have been scouring autotrader, pistonheads and eBay almost hourly over the last few days, it has got to the stage where the wife and I can start to provide some car details and the other can tell you where it is, price, colour, year and mileage . Oh happy days...

Saw one last night on autotrader, newly advertised close to me 2005 with 48,000 miles full service history in silver, slight concern over it being a bog standard family run second hand car dealers but thought it would be worth a look. Rang at opening time this morning to find someone had the nouse to call them out of hours last night went round and bought it. Who says these cars dont sell easily :) . Oh well back to the pondering.

[Neil E]

I would look for the six speed too, the enhancements to the later cars do make a noticeable difference but the earlier versions are still very good cars. Sat Nav disks can be swapped for updated maps and Bluetooth, reverse cameras, USB connections, etc can be added. It may be worth thinking about if you find a really good early version at a good price.

[willydoit]

I would look for the six speed too, the enhancements to the later cars do make a noticeable difference but the earlier versions are still very good cars. Sat Nav disks can be swapped for updated maps and Bluetooth, reverse cameras, USB connections, etc can be added. It may be worth thinking about if you find a really good early version at a good price.

Hi Neil,

this is where my knowledge is a problem as I cannot find anything which gives definitive information as to what changed when. I was under the impression that the post 2005 models had a facelift to the sat nav way beyond just a disk update. I thought they had a higher res screen and also included voice commands for sat nav, blue tooth and audio system and I would rather purchase one with these changes than sit back afterwards wishing I had maybe waited or spent a bit more and got one with them, sounds as though the six speed is worth holding out for too. I suppose there must have been a reason for Lexus spending the money to change it after all.

I suppose if I hold out for all these items I then at least know I have all that I could have got on the car and I assume that the Black 2007 (registered 11th Jan 2007 so effectively 2006 model I assume) will have all the changes made to the vehicle up to the end of production.

[jeffreyt]

been reading this thread with a sense of 'this is going to end in tears',I really do hope I'm wrong.

Firstly,if a 13K car is not exactly what you want ,walk away.If it was a £1300 car then yes you would need to compromise but for 13k you will get the right car eventually.It is out there somewhere.

The other thing that struck me was that you are expecting these cars to have problems and I think you are wrong.Its not an Alfa (as an Alfa enthusiast I have owned several and love them )these cars are well built and don't really carry any inherent problems apart from the 'flat Battery ' problem when they are left standing.Not sure if this affects the later models.

The 'faults' you mention did affect a few cars but it was never the norm.

You will need to personally check these 'fault' items on any car you are considering as relying on someone else who has a vested interest in selling the car would be foolish to say the least.

Which brings me onto your reliance on Lexus dealers to be honest,professional and have your interest at heart.Sad to say the exact opposite is the way it is ,main dealers ,including Lexus,are the biggest bunch of sharks you will come across.

I would suggest you bear this in mind in all your dealings with them.

I drive an old SC430 (01 vintage)with the 5 speed 'box,it is the best auto box I have ever driven and perfectly adequate for normal driving so I wouldn't get too hung up on the 6 speed 'box.

I wish you well with your search/purchase,keep us posted on how you get on.

[ColinBarber]

Hi Neil,

this is where my knowledge is a problem as I cannot find anything which gives definitive information as to what changed when. I was under the impression that the post 2005 models had a facelift to the sat nav way beyond just a disk update. I thought they had a higher res screen and also included voice commands for sat nav, blue tooth and audio system and I would rather purchase one with these changes than sit back afterwards wishing I had maybe waited or spent a bit more and got one with them, sounds as though the six speed is worth holding out for too. I suppose there must have been a reason for Lexus spending the money to change it after all.

I suppose if I hold out for all these items I then at least know I have all that I could have got on the car and I assume that the Black 2007 (registered 11th Jan 2007 so effectively 2006 model I assume) will have all the changes made to the vehicle up to the end of production.

Nav changed the previous year, kept the same for the major facelift at the end of 2005:

Sept 2004 - Revised shocks, new Sat Nav with voice recognition, Electronic Traffic Avoidance, hands free Bluetooth.

Dec 2005 - New 6 speed transmission with sequential manual mode - the extra ratio improved economy, acceleration and reduced emissions. Adaptive front lighting system (AFS), LED rear lights, new alloy wheels, new front end (grille, headlights, bumper, indicators and fog lights).

[willydoit]

been reading this thread with a sense of 'this is going to end in tears',I really do hope I'm wrong.Firstly,if a 13K car is not exactly what you want ,walk away.If it was a £1300 car then yes you would need to compromise but for 13k you will get the right car eventually.It is out there somewhere.The other thing that struck me was that you are expecting these cars to have problems and I think you are wrong.Its not an Alfa (as an Alfa enthusiast I have owned several and love them )these cars are well built and don't really carry any inherent problems apart from the 'flat battery ' problem when they are left standing.Not sure if this affects the later models.The 'faults' you mention did affect a few cars but it was never the norm.You will need to personally check these 'fault' items on any car you are considering as relying on someone else who has a vested interest in selling the car would be foolish to say the least.Which brings me onto your reliance on Lexus dealers to be honest,professional and have your interest at heart.Sad to say the exact opposite is the way it is ,main dealers ,including Lexus,are the biggest bunch of sharks you will come across.I would suggest you bear this in mind in all your dealings with them.I drive an old SC430 (01 vintage)with the 5 speed 'box,it is the best auto box I have ever driven and perfectly adequate for normal driving so I wouldn't

get too hung up on the 6 speed 'box.I wish you well with your search/purchase,keep us posted on how you get on.

Hi jeffrey,

Thanks for your input, still havent decided what to do, take on board your dealer comments just thinking that it should be the best of all options but the proof of the pudding etc. Will let you know how we get on.

[willydoit]

Hi Neil,

this is where my knowledge is a problem as I cannot find anything which gives definitive information as to what changed when. I was under the impression that the post 2005 models had a facelift to the sat nav way beyond just a disk update. I thought they had a higher res screen and also included voice commands for sat nav, blue tooth and audio system and I would rather purchase one with these changes than sit back afterwards wishing I had maybe waited or spent a bit more and got one with them, sounds as though the six speed is worth holding out for too. I suppose there must have been a reason for Lexus spending the money to change it after all.

I suppose if I hold out for all these items I then at least know I have all that I could have got on the car and I assume that the Black 2007 (registered 11th Jan 2007 so effectively 2006 model I assume) will have all the changes made to the vehicle up to the end of production.

Nav changed the previous year, kept the same for the major facelift at the end of 2005:

Sept 2004 - Revised shocks, new Sat Nav with voice recognition, Electronic Traffic Avoidance, hands free Bluetooth.

Dec 2005 - New 6 speed transmission with sequential manual mode - the extra ratio improved economy, acceleration and reduced emissions. Adaptive front lighting system (AFS), LED rear lights, new alloy wheels, new front end (grille, headlights, bumper, indicators and fog lights).

Thanks Neil thats v helpful.

[willydoit]

As mentioned I would prefer a low mileage car, probably snobbery as much as anything else and of course with most manufactures mileage can be very important. Everyone keeps going on about how bullet proof Lexus is, myself included but my 17 yr old ls400 has only done 55k so I have no appreciation of what a Lexus LS or SC with 100k on the clock would drive like. Could a good example with 100k drive almost as well and as quiet as when it was new or are things going to have loosened up to the state that its starts to get clunky and noisy and show its age a bit.

I would be interested in peoples feedback who have higher mileage SC s on how they have stood up to the extra miles from a driving and comfort perspective. If they do start to feel their age at around 100k then I know I have to extend the budget For a low mileage vehicle to achieve the owner experience I know that I am looking for as we do keep our cars for many years.

Logic would dictate that a 100k car cannot feel and drive like new yet it is a phrase you hear so often in these forums when people talk about their average to higher mileage cars, so objective feedback on this would be appreciated from anyone with first hand experience. Would anyone travelling in a 100k car ever guess it's true mileage from the comfort/driving experience?

Sorry to be a pain with this issue but all your feedback has been helpful, the more info I have the better placed I am to make my decisions and ensure I dont make a costly mistake or pass up a perfectly acceptible car due to stressing too much about things that just arent a problem.

Thanks in advance (again)

[Neil E]

Colin is right about the 6 speed, it is worth having so too are the AFS lights and I think the front of the later car looks better. I don't agree that all dealers are sharks but I understand that the salesmen are in business to make a profit. My experiences with Lexus and Toyota have only ever been very good. When I owned Soarers, Toyota were particularly helpful. I do agree with Jeffrey that you should not expect any issues with a low mileage SC, they are good fun and very reliable.

I've used the 6 speed in my GS430, LS430 and SC430 and I had the 5 speed in an earlier GS430. They were all really smooth, as were the 4 litre and TT Soarer's gearboxes. The 6 speed just gives you that little bit more. I don't worry too much about a warranty. I am happy to inspect a car, make a judgement and live with it but I can understand that if a car costs £13k+ then it's nice to have a main dealer to return to should something go wrong, say an ML amplifier.

I've just fitted an experimental rear spoiler to mine and was out on the road with the top down testing it this afternoon. Hope you find the right one soon. Just like the LS, it's a great car, it will make you smile.

[Neil E]

Ah, okay, just read your last post re high mileage Lexus.

My first GS 430 had 220k + miles on it and still drove really well when I sold it. My 04 LS430 had 120k and drove perfectly. An earlier 1991 4 litre Soarer had 230k miles on it and it would outrun an SC430. Yes a Lexus can still be excellent with high mileage.

BUT they were all maintained to a very high standard and that's the key to whether or not a high mileage car can run like new or as it should. Mine had nearly all original parts or improved parts where custom work was done. It doesn't mean it has to be maintained by a main dealer but genuine stamps in the book should give peace of mind. I have a local expert that I trust and we only use Toyota Lexus for parts and specialist diagnostic stuff,

My SC430 has more than £100k on it now. It has a full Lexus service history but was showing a few signs of neglect when I bought it last year. We know that mechanically they are very, very strong so it tends to be the usual service parts, suspension bushes, brakes, exhaust, Battery that need to be replaced. As long as I can see that regular servicing has been done and the cam-belt and water pump service is done by 100k miles/10 years I would be happy with a high mileage car, at the right price of course.