Is220d - This Engine Is Rough

[JFB2]

I've been considering putting a post on the forum for a while now about the IS220d engine, and have finally decided to do it. I don't like to be negative, but fundamentally this unit is not good enough for a Lexus.

Having had the car for a couple of months, and done about 1700 miles, I know its ins and outs pretty well now. I love the styling, the fascia, the seats, the handling, pretty much everything.

But I hate the engine. It's noisy, rough, and full of vibration. It has a strange torque curve which makes driving smoothly difficult. It has turbo lag which makes busy junctions a nightmare. It provides average fuel economy (40mpg if you're light footed). But fundamentally the worst aspect is definitely NVH. The noise is with you constantly, and it's not pleasant. At all.

I was just reading about the new LS, which sounds superb, and the Lexus Chief Engineer is quoted as saying that "Quietness and comfort are very important". Well, he must have been on holiday when they put the 220 engine in the IS. I had a Honda Accord i-CTDi for a day recently, and that unit is significantly more refined, in fact pretty much like a petrol engine.

Does anybody else agree with me that the Toyota engineers need to look again at this unit? Why didn't they start with a 6 cylinder, or at least a 5?

[scott]

Totally agree on the torque curve.

The only time I notice the noise is first thing on startup, after that I think it becomes remarkably quiet.

It's much quieter than my IS300 at 80 mph and that was a six cylinder, the only noise that I hear is the road noise and if you hit some of that new (sound proofed) tarmac then it's incredibly quiet.

Granted, there is some noise under brisk acceleration but it's not a lot, and sometimes I wish it was a bit more sporty.

Vibration wise, I don't get any unless I've got the ML on 30+, then it's like having one of the nodding dogs beating along in time to the music. :D

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

It's a diesel...

Having had many before (and driven loads) this is average. However, Lexus will tell you it's the most advanced (all aluminium and all of that).

I still think of all 4 Cyl ones the Beemer edges it for NVH/gearing spread, and makes better use of it's 163bhp. The C220CDI Merc is the worst for noise...it's aweful!

This is on a par with the Audi 2.0TDi (138bhp), and the Honda 2.2 CDTi.

The Lexus has a narrow band...and the "gearing" too tall (though first is too short), that's it's flaw, and I still think a twin turbo (i.e. smaller one at 1200rpm) would have helped!!

I wish I had tried the Sport to see if it was better...

[spikes]

diesels ..ice cream vans :winky:

i'll have a 99 please

[alpappy]

HI

Yes the diesel is not as quiet as the petrol but once on the go is abou the about the same as the BMW The torque curve is strange for a diesel I have not used 6th at all and find the revs around 2k most comfortable in each gear! but this seems to be how the engine was 'designed' and I suppose I couldl get used to it

alan

[marjohn]

HI

Yes the diesel is not as quiet as the petrol but once on the go is abou the about the same as the BMW The torque curve is strange for a diesel I have not used 6th at all and find the revs around 2k most comfortable in each gear! but this seems to be how the engine was 'designed' and I suppose I couldl get used to it

alan

After 600 miles.....

After driving a BMW 320d for 3 years, followed by a SAAB 93 Aero for 3 years, I've got used to the gearing on the IS very quickly. Yes, 6th gear is strange, obviously it was set for the Autobahns, because if you use it here, you'll very quickly find yourelf nudging the 100mph mark as I did. It's a licence loser, it can very quietly creep up there, I didn't look at the rev counter, but I'm sure I was only doing about 2400rpm.

On start up, the diesel sounds like a bag of spanners, but only from the outside; inside it seems to take about 10 seconds to smooth out. When it's warmed up, I can barely hear it at tickover, and a sweet low growl when revs go up as I pull away. There is some slight diesel vibration at tickover, but no more than my 320d. At motorway cruising speed ( 78mph! ), there's less noise than either the BMW or SAAB, and the BMW did not have low profiles.

I have no problems with a standing start pull away, maybe because I anticipate it. Once past 2200 rpm, the turbo has kicked in, and any gear changes now will leave it kicked in. If you give it a few more revs, the torque band band goes comfortably to 4200+ before you start to feel it tailing off.

I can cruise around town in 3rd and 4th, although 4th at 30mph is almost at tickover, and it can feel laboured when you try to accelerate, but great for economy! Conversely, in 3rd you can do almost anything, no need to drop into second when going round corners; I definately change gear less in the IS than I did in the SAAB due to the extra torque of the diesel.

Acceleration from 50 to 70 is a revelation, I was concerned about that after the SAAB, but it's certainly quick enough to get out of problems on the motorway.

I test drove the Honda, and the engine is smoother, however, it has no where near the torque of the Lexus, and that was the problem with it. When pulling away, It felt sluggish.

The only query I have, is does everyone elses IS220d tickover at 1100 till it's warm? I'm half way to work before it drops back.

[scott]

Acceleration from 50 to 70 is a revelation, I was concerned about that after the SAAB, but it's certainly quick enough to get out of problems on the motorway.

I love overtaking in the 220 and I think I've suprised quite a few other drivers at how quick I can pull out and be past them in no time. I do have to keep an eye on the speedo as 70 mph seems to come round very quickly.

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

HI

Yes the diesel is not as quiet as the petrol but once on the go is abou the about the same as the BMW The torque curve is strange for a diesel I have not used 6th at all and find the revs around 2k most comfortable in each gear! but this seems to be how the engine was 'designed' and I suppose I couldl get used to it

alan

After 600 miles.....

After driving a BMW 320d for 3 years, followed by a SAAB 93 Aero for 3 years, I've got used to the gearing on the IS very quickly. Yes, 6th gear is strange, obviously it was set for the Autobahns, because if you use it here, you'll very quickly find yourelf nudging the 100mph mark as I did. It's a licence loser, it can very quietly creep up there, I didn't look at the rev counter, but I'm sure I was only doing about 2400rpm.

On start up, the diesel sounds like a bag of spanners, but only from the outside; inside it seems to take about 10 seconds to smooth out. When it's warmed up, I can barely hear it at tickover, and a sweet low growl when revs go up as I pull away. There is some slight diesel vibration at tickover, but no more than my 320d. At motorway cruising speed ( 78mph! ), there's less noise than either the BMW or SAAB, and the BMW did not have low profiles.

I have no problems with a standing start pull away, maybe because I anticipate it. Once past 2200 rpm, the turbo has kicked in, and any gear changes now will leave it kicked in. If you give it a few more revs, the torque band band goes comfortably to 4200+ before you start to feel it tailing off.

I can cruise around town in 3rd and 4th, although 4th at 30mph is almost at tickover, and it can feel laboured when you try to accelerate, but great for economy! Conversely, in 3rd you can do almost anything, no need to drop into second when going round corners; I definately change gear less in the IS than I did in the SAAB due to the extra torque of the diesel.

Acceleration from 50 to 70 is a revelation, I was concerned about that after the SAAB, but it's certainly quick enough to get out of problems on the motorway.

I test drove the Honda, and the engine is smoother, however, it has no where near the torque of the Lexus, and that was the problem with it. When pulling away, It felt sluggish.

The only query I have, is does everyone elses IS220d tickover at 1100 till it's warm? I'm half way to work before it drops back.

It seems to hunt between 850 and 1100rpm until it's nearly warm. I reckon this is one of the reasons why the diesel is not too good in terms of economy in town on a coldish engine.

My experience is just like yours. It's lightning quick, and like Scott i've jumped a few Beemers on roundabout pull aways/rolling starts...brings a smile on my face, so much so I reckon it would give a 330d a good run too on that sort of pull aways.

I'm currently on 1450 miles, and I have to say 6th is getting much better; also I can get away with 3rd from 15mph upwards now quite comfortably, and despite what the manual says, I can just about use 6th at 65-75mph on a flattish/down hill run, though the response is obviously slow for a quick overtake.

The car has hardly been used since the rattle fix last week...I'm trying to keep it to <10,000 a year as I want to kep it long term :D

So today I had a 110bhp Pug 307 HDi ...boy it was slow!

This is the last oiler I'll be getting...my next one will be a hot rod (Audi RS4!!) but I have to wait until I'm 45 so the insurance isn't too steep!! That means 6 years..... and lots & lots of saving up!!

[scott]

This is the last oiler I'll be getting...my next one will be a hot rod (Audi RS4!!) but I have to wait until I'm 45 so the insurance isn't too steep!! That means 6 years..... and lots & lots of saving up!!

:D :D Jamboo, you're planning and saving for a mid-life crisis!

[maneesh]

I'm sure it's a top engine in an overall sense. All turbos have lag, less so with twin turbos though. That's why I would never go with a turbo engine for daily use in town. Regarding the noise, ah, well, Lexus petrol units are soooooooooo quiet, particularly the V8 units, that they have set a precedent. Even Lexus diesels will struggle to compare to the best Lexus petrol units around.

Lexus have only brought out the diesel to compete for market share in this highly competitive segment. The petrol IS alone won't build market share. They are following the BMW model now, they are chasing sales, rather than sticking to what they are good at. Extending the brand left, right and centre!!!

Lexus should have left diesels where they belong - farmyard equipment...(oooh just being sarcy on that one!)

I must get round to test driving one of these IS220ds..so I can eat my hat!!!

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

This is the last oiler I'll be getting...my next one will be a hot rod (Audi RS4!!) but I have to wait until I'm 45 so the insurance isn't too steep!! That means 6 years..... and lots & lots of saving up!!

:D :D Jamboo, you're planning and saving for a mid-life crisis!

Absolutely...planning for the mid life crisis alright

got to tell the Mrs yet though... :duh: I watched JC race those adrenaline junkies up the mountain on Top Gear and thought ".....that RS4 is unbelievable..." even though JC can get it wrong occasionally...though he's great to watch and listen to!!

0-60 in 4.8 secs, 400 odd BHP, quattro with a 4.2V8...OK so an Evo can almost match that, but it has a serious boy racer image...but then only costs half as much!

Unless the IS500V8 hits town....in which case.... :winky:

In the meantime I'm loving the IS Diesel, it's a diesel so you have to accept NVH and turbo lag. What does make it slightly worse is the huge Torque (which makes the lag more noticeable), a narrowish torque delivery and tall gearing. It ain't the best drive, but the rest of the car makes up for it...

These are small niggles in the grand scheme (for anyone thinking we're mad).

Just one other point, when I had the IS250 SE last week (manual), it definately felt "normal" in the gearing stakes...

You could use 5th at 30-35 and 6th at 40 no problems....and that V6 sounds glorious. No doubt it's quicker than the diesel off the mark, but once the torque kicks in the oiler just flies !

[alpappy]

HI

Where do you find the max torque ? I seem to find that I am driving with the revs around 2-2.5

alan

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

On mine it's 2400-3000 but you will find the new engine is very, very tight. You need to give it at least 800 miles before you "feel the force", but once the force is with you, it's addictive!!

Just been out in mine again to run an errand, and had to take the long way around ;-).

It's best to go beemer killing in 3rd but prefereably 4th gear speeds!!! A Ford probe 2.5V6 didn't know what hit it today on the A6 Great Glen bypass as he tried to take me on the inside...(coming out of the 1st new roundabout)...

All within legal limits of course!!

[JFB2]

I'm sure it's a top engine in an overall sense. All turbos have lag, less so with twin turbos though. That's why I would never go with a turbo engine for daily use in town. Regarding the noise, ah, well, Lexus petrol units are soooooooooo quiet, particularly the V8 units, that they have set a precedent. Even Lexus diesels will struggle to compare to the best Lexus petrol units around.

Lexus have only brought out the diesel to compete for market share in this highly competitive segment. The petrol IS alone won't build market share. They are following the BMW model now, they are chasing sales, rather than sticking to what they are good at. Extending the brand left, right and centre!!!

Lexus should have left diesels where they belong - farmyard equipment...(oooh just being sarcy on that one!)

I must get round to test driving one of these IS220ds..so I can eat my hat!!!

Maneesh, believe me - your hat will stay intact. Yes, this engine has torque, but the idea that it's one of the most advanced on the market is simply laughable. Mediocre fuel economy, tractor sound-track, useless top gear - this is sales chasing at its most cynical. Back to the drawing board for Toyota...

JFB

[romaro]

Maneesh, believe me - your hat will stay intact. Yes, this engine has torque, but the idea that it's one of the most advanced on the market is simply laughable. Mediocre fuel economy, tractor sound-track, useless top gear - this is sales chasing at its most cynical. Back to the drawing board for Toyota...

JFB

I'm sure there are better diesels out there, but I'm certainly very impressed.

I was a passenger in an Audi A6 with a 2.5 V6 TDI a week before I got my IS220D, and hearing that grumble, groan and strain away - with little change in speed - was really putting me off the idea of having plumped for the diesel.

However, I find the refinement of the 220D to be fantastic. Yes, the soundtrack is never going to compare to a petrol but most of the time I find it to be silent, or near enough. I only have 400 miles on the clock, but can already fairly comfortably use 6th gear at 70 mph (and certainly at 75-80 it's very happy...surely I'm not the only one who is happy travelling a fraction over the speed limit on the motorway?? And as Jamboo's post on the speedo accuracy shows, an indicated 75 is more than likely perfectly legal!).

Anyway, I digress - as for fuel economy I'm averaging high 40s, generally exceeding the offical economy figures and managed 60.5 mpg on a short run out along 40mph hilly country roads the other day.

The engine in the 220D also exceeds not only the Euro IV but the proposed Euro V standards on Nox and particulate emissions - by a long way for the particulate. I don't know what other diesels can manage, but that sounds pretty advanced to me.

And one final point:

295 lb/ft of torque mmmmmmmm

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Romaro...wait till you get a few miles under the bonnet...that 295 lb/ft torque becomes more vvvvvvrrrrrrrmmmmmmmm than just mmmmmmm :D

Mind you I think yours is a Sport, with a shorter gearing/drive?

I haven't yet once seen smoke come out of the exhaust...even in the dark when I use that "mmmmmmmmm" torque against headlights of the car behind me in the rear view mirror.... B)

My old A4 had twin down turned pipes, and when I did that all you could see was smog against the lights ....it always let out bags of soot! So this particulate thing is definately doing something....

PS - I agree it's not the best engine in the world from an NVH perspective, but once your driving it (and not trying to thrash it) it is cool. Like I said, it's a diesel!

[romaro]

Romaro...wait till you get a few miles under the bonnet...that 295 lb/ft torque becomes more vvvvvvrrrrrrrmmmmmmmm than just mmmmmmm :D

Mind you I think yours is a Sport, with a shorter gearing/drive?

I'm looking forward to it! Have to say I was pretty impressed with how fast it felt right from new but I can certainly see what you mean about how tight it is at first now that mine has a few more miles on it. Roll 1,000 miles! :)

Mine's just the standard car (with the obligatory MM pack of course...maybe Mr Levinson is responsible for me not being able to hear the engine?) - so tall gearing. They did seem very strange at first (coming from a high-revving Corolla T-Sport) but I'm completely used to them now and they actually seem quite sensible to me. I think some of the negative press in that respect is coming from journalists who drive all sorts of cars day-in, day-out - they jump into a 220D and think "this is different, must be bad" (Or in some cases "this isn't a BMW, must be bad" :P) whereas I think it's just different!