220 Or 250 Now I Am Confused

[Hungry Horace]

I posted in an earlier thread about buying a 220D and then spent the evening browsing this forum regarding the known issues with the 220. The one I found to buy is a 2006 with 121,000km and has been fully serviced. However from reading the threads on here a FSH is no guarantee the HG won't go.

So I looked into the IS250 which I haven't found a bad word about. The only issue for me is MPG.

I live in Germany but travel to the UK 2 or 3 times a month so I figured the 220 would be the best bet given the mileage I would do and the fact diesel is cheaper on the continent, however a lot of people on here are saying the 220 is pretty rubbish on fuel for a diesel.

So after my long winded build up my question would be is the MPG on the 250 auto worse than the 220 but not significantly or am I really better off with a 220 and just hope the HG issue doesn't rear it's head.

What are the real MPG people are getting on long runs with both cars. When not driving to and fro from Germany to UK the car won't get a lot of use.

Any comments appreciated.

[Ray s]

35 MPG or 39MPG tank average for me combined In my 220D

[ChumpusRex]

Get about 28-32 mpg (combined) on my regular commute, or up to 35-40 mpg on a long run (depending on how heavy the right foot is) in my 250 Auto.

Record tank average was 46 mpg (47.8 indicated on the dash), but that was a 450 mile run and I took it very gently.

[ronsis]

_{my 220D has been giving me 41 av mpg so far... gently around town commuting etc... 50 ish if I do a London -Glasgow run...}

[Touche]

If I'm very gentle (56-60mph in 5th gear) I can get over 60mpg since my new engine (had the HG issue at 71,000 miles).

This was Oxford to Birmingham on the M40.

This was London to Derby on the M1.

[DennisJ]

Touche, are you sure they put the Lexus engine in when they changed it.

Either that or you must be getting a tow off someone, or your computer is off somehow.

My tank average (2009 facelift at 44000 miles) is usually around 36MPG or if the car is fuelled when warm then taken on a long motorway journey 44MPG. Believe me I coast down hills and use the throttle like it's made of glass. Had I done that with BMW's or Mercedes I've owned then I would easily achieve 50-60MPG.

Seriously if you want fuel economy then Lexus should not be your choice...I love the interior on mine but engines are poor compared to German rivals (diesels)

[Silver Arrow]

Personally, if you want a diesel for economy then I would avoid the Lexus. There are far better diesels out there (from both economy and reliability perspective). The Toyota D4D was effectively put into the car, then they messed about with the diff etc to make it's gearing more suited to economy. In the UK, the 6th gear is useless on the whole, unless you have no regard to speed limits (though on a German autobahn you'll be fine ;-)).

If it has to be a Lexus, then an IS250 Auto is going to be best for you. Much stronger - and as I always say now - buy what a car maker does best - in the case of Lexus then it has to be a Petrol Engined or hybrid Auto....in the same way if someone was to buy a BMW hybrid (petrol) I would say get the Lexus GS 450h.....

I know people on here get amazing economy from their IS220d's. I had one from new, and I had to drive it really carefull to get anything above 42mpg. I mean really carefully. I could get 50+ mpg, but it was at Miss Daisy speeds.

I found that in my 6 Cylinder Diesel BMW Auto (a 3.0 5 series) I could get 45mpg with trying too hard at all....in the Lexus it took so much concentration so that it was a real painful experience.

[Touche]

Touche, are you sure they put the Lexus engine in when they changed it.

Either that or you must be getting a tow off someone, or your computer is off somehow.

My tank average (2009 facelift at 44000 miles) is usually around 36MPG or if the car is fuelled when warm then taken on a long motorway journey 44MPG. Believe me I coast down hills and use the throttle like it's made of glass. Had I done that with BMW's or Mercedes I've owned then I would easily achieve 50-60MPG.

Seriously if you want fuel economy then Lexus should not be your choice...I love the interior on mine but engines are poor compared to German rivals (diesels)

Lol, it's definately a Lexus engine. I cleaned out the EGR valve the other day.

Wasn't being towed and my computer is only around 1% out based on brim to brim calculations. I've had 640 miles out of a full tank (which was around 48mpg tank average). I know that's by no means typical but at the moment my is220d seems decent enough. Having said that my old Alfa diesel was even more economical and my wife's Seat is also better.

[normski2]

I posted in an earlier thread about buying a 220D and then spent the evening browsing this forum regarding the known issues with the 220. The one I found to buy is a 2006 with 121,000km and has been fully serviced. However from reading the threads on here a FSH is no guarantee the HG won't go.

So I looked into the IS250 which I haven't found a bad word about. The only issue for me is MPG.

I live in Germany but travel to the UK 2 or 3 times a month so I figured the 220 would be the best bet given the mileage I would do and the fact diesel is cheaper on the continent, however a lot of people on here are saying the 220 is pretty rubbish on fuel for a diesel.

So after my long winded build up my question would be is the MPG on the 250 auto worse than the 220 but not significantly or am I really better off with a 220 and just hope the HG issue doesn't rear it's head.

What are the real MPG people are getting on long runs with both cars. When not driving to and fro from Germany to UK the car won't get a lot of use.

Any comments appreciated.

Personally...I would go for the 250 Auto. It is a joy to drive, gearbox is divine and the V6 is just silent and powerful.

With my 250 I get 29 - 35 around town and close to 40 on a decent run.

[DJP]

Personally, if you want a diesel for economy then I would avoid the Lexus. There are far better diesels out there (from both economy and reliability perspective). The Toyota D4D was effectively put into the car, then they messed about with the diff etc to make it's gearing more suited to economy. In the UK, the 6th gear is useless on the whole, unless you have no regard to speed limits (though on a German autobahn you'll be fine ;-)).

If it has to be a Lexus, then an IS250 Auto is going to be best for you. Much stronger - and as I always say now - buy what a car maker does best - in the case of Lexus then it has to be a Petrol Engined or hybrid Auto....in the same way if someone was to buy a BMW hybrid (petrol) I would say get the Lexus GS 450h.....

I know people on here get amazing economy from their IS220d's. I had one from new, and I had to drive it really carefull to get anything above 42mpg. I mean really carefully. I could get 50+ mpg, but it was at Miss Daisy speeds.

I found that in my 6 Cylinder Diesel BMW Auto (a 3.0 5 series) I could get 45mpg with trying too hard at all....in the Lexus it took so much concentration so that it was a real painful experience.

Nail on the head here.

[cidersteve]

only had my car for a few weeks and i have only done one long journey, poole to sidmouth and averaged 41.6 mpg,my commute to work is 7 miles each way and the average is 30.5 mpg, hope that helps :)

[Hungry Horace]

I have decided to go for the 250 for a number of reasons. Head gasket issue, ideally wanted an auto, and the fact the fuel economy isn't the greatest on the diesel albeit better than the 250.

Can someone tell me what potential problems to look out for on a 250.

Also my other concern is this E10 EU fuel nonsense. Lexus states that pre 2008 cars can't use this fuel. If the model I bought was pre 2008 is there a way to make the engine compatible i.e an ECU flash or some other thing or would I be required to put additive in every tank (if this is an option) much like the old days when unleaded fuel was introduced.

Cheers

[ChumpusRex]

IS250s manufactured from September 2007 onwards are OK for E10. (This means that some 08 reg cars may not be E10 compatible). The change also does not coincide with a model year change. Although all 2009 MY should be fine.

The issue with E10 is not tuning, modern ECUs can tune over an incredible range of fuel qualities. As an experiment, I filled my 2005 IS250 with 25% ethanol, and monitored the ECU. It adjusted to the fuel within a few seconds and the car's performance was indistinguishable.

There are 2 problems with ethanol:

1. It is corrosive in a different way to pure petrol. So materials that can withstand constant exposure to petrol may not withstand constant exposure to ethanol. There is a limited choice of materials available which are compatible with both.

2. It contains water left over from manufacture, and absorbs water from the air. Water can cause rusting or oxidation of metal components that contact the fuel.

In the US, IS250s manufactured before 2008 were subject to a mandatory manufacturer recall because they would be affected by high ethanol fuel. The high pressure fuel injection common rails were replaced as they suffered premature corrosion because of water in ethanol fuel; the reason for the recall was because this could lead to a pinhole leak, but another problem was that the oxide formed as a result of the the corrosion could clog the injectors.

Rather confusingly, the replaced common rails did not get a new part number; the part number of the obsolete part and the replacement is identical. So I don't know what the actual difference between the old and new parts are, or if there is any way of telling whether you have the old or revised part.

There were also several part-number changes related to the fuel system before September 2007:

1. Redesigned high pressure fuel pipes (2 and 3)

2. A redesigned internal fuel tank part.

The new fuel tank part was used starting from September 2007. It's an internal baffle, that acts as a "tank with the tank" that the fuel pump sits in. This means that the fuel tank can stay fully immersed in fuel, even if the tank is almost dry and you're going up or down a steep hill. Worst that could happen is that it could rot, and cause the engine to starve for fuel when the tank is nearly empty and you're going up/down or ragging it round corners.

All the parts are replaceable. The fuel tank part is not expensive.

The common rails and HP fuel pipes are quite expensive, and it's a 3-4 hour job to swap them out and you need a huge number of disposable gaskets/seals/O-rings/etc. to do the job, as well as special tools. Basically, only a lexus dealer or a garage with specialist common rail experience could do it.

Basically, it's doable, but it would probably cost £750-1000 or so to replace all the parts (and that assumes that I've actually identified all the relevant parts).

Unless your car has crazy low miles, and a high residual value, it's probably not worth doing, and instead taking a wait-and-see approach, and replacing the parts in the (probably very unlikely event) that you run into problems.

One thing that you could try as a preventative is to use isopropanol as a fuel additive. Isopropanol is widely used as a "petrol dryer". It doesn't actually "dry" the fuel, the water stays in it. However, it stops the water from separating from the petrol. A problem with E10 is that the water can actually "fall out" of the fuel and settle at the bottom of the fuel tank and in fuel lines. In cold climates, this separated water can freeze when the car is left overnight. Isopropanol stops the water from "falling out" of the fuel.

I don't know whether it will have any effect on the corrosion of aluminium fuel rails. But it might help, and shouldn't do any real harm. It's also easily and cheaply available.

Obviously, if you are using isopropanol, it's important to make sure that you're using dry isopropanol (99.9% purity). I'd guess about 250 ml of 99.9% in a tank would be about right. It's commonly found in 90% and 70% purity, with the rest being water. As you might guess, sticking these in your fuel tank is a really bad idea.

Notes:

VIN checking tool: http://vinrecall.toyota-europe.com/e10.aspx

Common rail part numbers: 23807-31020 and 23808-31010

Fuel pipe part numbers: 23803-31013 and 23802-31043

Fuel sub-tank: 77131-22052

[Hungry Horace]

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply.

I don't actually own a 250 yet but I am looking for one so will try to find a later model that has the newer parts unless of course I can come across an absolute bargain.

Thanks again.

[Silver Arrow]

HH - the best IS250 model, imho, is a 2009 IS250 SEL Auto. They were only made in the original spec if I recall for a short period of time - it will have the auto rear blind but no brown yamaha wood trim around the auto shifter (more of a birds eye maple type). It will also have the newer alloys and "L" rear lights.

For me that was the best IS250, and I would even get one with a few more miles if I could source one.

EDIT:

HERE - like this one