"Skipping" of tyres.

[bernieeccles]

Now I know this topic has been covered before and others have said this is normal but mine has always made this horrendous noise when applying quite a bit of steering wheel lock and more so in the cold weather. The noise, which you probably know is a sort of loud cracking noise, is quite alarming and I find it hard to believe that manufacturers claim this is normal and harmless.

Has anybody had their wheels aligned on a Hunter or equivalent machine and got this painful noise eliminated or reduced.

Had some passengers in yesterday and their reaction was, what the hell is that!

[johnatg]

It's a function of the steering geometry. You can't eliminate it - alignment won't help. Just try not to use full steering lock.

[Pielight]

My GSF has occasionally done this since I bought it at 19500 miles 2 years ago. On Saturday night pulling out of the drive at even less than full lock was the worst ever..I even did a quick check to make sure wheel Wasn’t coming loose. I moved back and forward and was getting this awful noise each time

Around half an hour later I’ve pulled into a filling station 1/2 mile down the road and made a point of using full lock (I thought maybe cold wEsther makes the rubber harder and less pliable) - nothing! When I returned home I did the same manoeuvring within the drive and again nothing - then it finally dawned on me what the cause is.

My drive is Mainly block paved but also has a gravelled area. It is the round large pea gravel type. What is obvious to me now, is that the tires pick up gravel (which I have noticed on other peoples car in my drive) which sticks to the tyres. It is obvious that this is causing the tyres to skip across the paved surface and grinding the gravel as they go.

This explains why it has alway been worse in my drive and when coming from the area where I have to pass over the gravel and then use full lock on the block paved area and road beyond. It has happended to a lesser extent elsewhere but I’m now pretty certain there must have been some degree of gravel or loose material on the road on these occasions too.

Could this apply in your case too?

[NemesisUK]

36 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

Has anybody had their wheels aligned on a Hunter or equivalent machine and got this painful noise eliminated or reduced.

As has been mentioned, alignment will not cure this. Fitting softer compound winter or all season tyres possibly will. Certainly this is what Mercedes have done on some of their models that suffer this issue.

I do notice it on cold winter mornings when turning out of my driveway (first time it happened I thought I'd run over a brick!) but after a short drive and the tyres have warmed up it seems to go away. It's not something I'm too concerned over

[Vlady]

I had this issue on colder days when I bought the car 3 years ago, and after owning a BMW this behaviour of the front wheels was shocking to me! 

I took the car to Lexus dealer and they checked alignment and all was good but the problem still exist, the only thing that worked is changing tyres to all season, since then I never had this problem.

I have read too that Mercedes and Jaguars are suffering from this "feature".

[Linas.P]

To be fair any car on larger wheels and lower profile tyres will suffer from this regardless of the make. Sure enough the tyre grooves design and compound can make a difference, but that is just physics. And I know 17" 45 profile tyre does not sounds massive nowadays, but that is because all cars have ridiculously large wheels. I remember Dunlop Sportmaxx RTs were particularly noticeable on IS250, because they have 3 massive ribs going across all circumference of the tyre - actually excellent tyre, but crabbing was definitely an issue for them. To my surprise I don't remember this on Michelin PS4s, despite being even lower profile and noticeably harder compound, although it used to feel to me like the tyre from cold did not have as good grip as Dunlop and I generally could not drive hard enough on my regular commute to bring it up-to temp - so maybe it was just sliding. Didn't remember this issue on RC, but to be fair I haven't driven it much, especially on colder days and my cars sits in garage, so although not warm it still stays good 2-5C above temperature outside and on top of that, the way I park it does not require me to steer when stationary when leaving. 

Sorry if it sounds obvious, but the only way to fix this without changing the tyres is not to steer car when stationary (and that is generally better for all components involved in steering).

[Alan305]

Low temperatures can also cause issues with shock absorbers as well as tyres. We had a Lancia Beta Coupe that needed 5 miles in cold weather before the ride settled.

[Pielight]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

To be fair any car on larger wheels and lower profile tyres will suffer from this regardless of the make. Sure enough the tyre grooves design and compound can make a difference, but that is just physics. And I know 17" 45 profile tyre does not sounds massive nowadays, but that is because all cars have ridiculously large wheels. I remember Dunlop Sportmaxx RTs were particularly noticeable on IS250, because they have 3 massive ribs going across all circumference of the tyre - actually excellent tyre, but crabbing was definitely an issue for them. To my surprise I don't remember this on Michelin PS4s, despite being even lower profile and noticeably harder compound, although it used to feel to me like the tyre from cold did not have as good grip as Dunlop and I generally could not drive hard enough on my regular commute to bring it up-to temp - so maybe it was just sliding. Didn't remember this issue on RC, but to be fair I haven't driven it much, especially on colder days and my cars sits in garage, so although not warm it still stays good 2-5C above temperature outside and on top of that, the way I park it does not require me to steer when stationary when leaving. 

Sorry if it sounds obvious, but the only way to fix this without changing the tyres is not to steer car when stationary (and that is generally better for all components involved in steering).

If bernieeccles problem is the same as what I and others have experienced in this and other threads, it ony occurs when the car is moving never while stationary (I never 'dry steer' - as you say it overstresses steering components).

[bernieeccles]

7 minutes ago, Pielight said:

If bernieeccles problem is the same as what I and others have experienced in this and other threads, it ony occurs when the car is moving never while stationary (I never 'dry steer' - as you say it overstresses steering components).

Yes, it can only happen as I do a maneuver on my tarmac drive i.e. a reverse on full or part full lock then a forward turn. It just can't be good for the tyres and I wonder where the threshold of width, profile etc of tyre means that this is inevitable. We also have a Honda Civic but that doesn't suffer from this. For anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy, this is alarming.

[Linas.P]

Ok, sorry maybe I misunderstood the issue then. But I guess to some degree same applies to full lock when reversing - wheels are not in same angles (because the can't be) and inevitably it comes to point where tyre has to jump back to it's "natural" form. The harder is the compound, the lower is tyre profile, the grippier is the tyre and the more aggressive thread, the more noticeable this "jump" will be. 

[Pielight]

54 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

Yes, it can only happen as I do a maneuver on my tarmac drive i.e. a reverse on full or part full lock then a forward turn. It just can't be good for the tyres and I wonder where the threshold of width, profile etc of tyre means that this is inevitable. We also have a Honda Civic but that doesn't suffer from this. For anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy, this is alarming.

Yes you're right...it is indeed very alarming! I suspect it sounds worse than it is as far as wear and tear is concerned...I worry more for stress transfered to suspension components than tyres which are designed to take a good beating. 

Does it only happen in your drive...mine is by far at its worst there and I am now satisfied yhat in this case it is caused by the tyres picking up gravel from a gravelled area I have to drive through before again reaching block paving when I park in a particular spot at the front of my house. And it does it at less than full lock.

If your tarmac is very smooth or has that fine loose material atop either will be more prone to skidding (as the case when my tyres have picked up gravel. Tl

I also have a Honda Civic and wife has a Renault Captur which never have problems. As you say tyre profile etc must have a bearing, as would wheelbase length and steering lock limit on individual cars.I strongly suspect cold tyres make it worse too.

At first I thought it was a rear wheel drive issue, but if that was the case it wouldn't do it in reverse.

All we can really do is use as little lock as possible in the conditions where thiscis prone to happen....perhaps doing a 3vpount manoeuvre rather than a single full lock one.

. 

[eleveneleven]

I'm having the same Issue, only happens when I'm pulling off the drive (as full lock is required) or maneuvering when car/wheels are cold. Doesn't sound great at all but Lexus didn't spot anything when I took it to them, (they did perform some steering wheel adjustments so it doesn't drift to one side as much anymore but that noise is still there and steering wheel still skips/shakes over bigger bumps. 

new tyres aside, my front alloys are quite badly corroded maybe that could be the issue?

OP how are yours looking? 

[bernieeccles]

50 minutes ago, eleveneleven said:

I'm having the same Issue, only happens when I'm pulling off the drive (as full lock is required) or maneuvering when car/wheels are cold. Doesn't sound great at all but Lexus didn't spot anything when I took it to them, (they did perform some steering wheel adjustments so it doesn't drift to one side as much anymore but that noise is still there and steering wheel still skips/shakes over bigger bumps. 

new tyres aside, my front alloys are quite badly corroded maybe that could be the issue?

OP how are yours looking? 

My wheels, 17 inch, are in very good condition because the previous owner, who had it from new, had them professionally restored and powder coated a few years ago. BTW, my front tyres are Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 3's and the rears Asymmetric 5's.

[johnatg]

Corroded wheels are a cosmetic and can have no possible bearing on the 'tyre skipping' issue - if the corrosion is worse than cosmetic then 'tyre skipping' is the least of your worries.

As I have mentioned here and elsewhere the skipping is because the front wheels have to traverse different arcs - the inner one has a much tighter radius than the outer. The steering arms in Ackermann geometery don't allow this to happen precisely so that the wheels follow correct arcs - making it exact  might be possible with a tremendously complex linkage system, probably involving fly-by-wire steering and all sorts of elecronics and electric motors. And there's the whole question of steering feel, stability and road holding.

Whilst it's not really related to RWD (vs FWD) FWD cars tend not to suffer because their steering lock is restricted by the CV joints in the drive shafts - they simply can't achieve the lock to make the problem obvious. So they have a bigger turning circle. On the whole that doesn't matter because they tend to have a shorter wheelbase. Lexus could have restricted the lock to make a bigger turning circle but that maybe was seen as an unacceptable compromise.

One thing that might help if you are concerned about this is to reduce tyre pressures. Note the recommended pressure on the drivers door label for your tyres and set the pressues right at the bottom end of the range. That will enable the tyre to be more flexible and the distortion will compensate for the slightly incorrect track the wheel is trying to follow. If you are only driving in town you could drop the pressure by another pound or two if necessary. Just adjust the front wheel tyre pressures. If someone tries this, please let us know if it works!

Check the tyres are at least at the minimum pressures if you're driving on 'the open road'.

[Alan305]

Of our 6 Lexus models the worst for this was our IS300h F Sport. Also get it on my Westfield with sticky Toyo semi slick tyres.  I’m told that’s because the tyres walls are quite stiff. Application of power to the rear wheels sorts it.

[Barry14UK]

Reference has been made to this on Mercedes 4 wheel drive cars in the UK and Australia.  There are pages of comments, and videos. showing this happen.  Mercedes have offered alternative tyres which has helped alleviate the problem but not completely cure it.  The problem with these particular cars is much less of a problem in the USA and has been put down to having a different front drive there due to LHD and RHD.  This particular cause should not apply to Lexus.    

[Thelongterm]

I posted about this few weeks back and it is now sorted.

The car I acquired was from a lady who hardly used it but kept it garaged. This treatment meant she last changed tyres around 2011-2012, it's a combo of Pirelli's P7's at the back and Dunlop sport maxx rt on the front. So although the thread is reasonable at 3.5 to 4.5 the tyres were noticeably stiffer in the cold with lots of skipping even at a light reverse turns.

The car was fitted last week with all-seasons boots all-round and now the skipping is gone.

 

 

 

 

[Alan305]

1 hour ago, Barry14UK said:

… much less of a problem in the USA …

Because they don’t have many corners?

[Pielight]

6 hours ago, johnatg said:

Corroded wheels are a cosmetic and can have no possible bearing on the 'tyre skipping' issue - if the corrosion is worse than cosmetic then 'tyre skipping' is the least of your worries.

As I have mentioned here and elsewhere the skipping is because the front wheels have to traverse different arcs - the inner one has a much tighter radius than the outer. The steering arms in Ackermann geometery don't allow this to happen precisely so that the wheels follow correct arcs - making it exact  might be possible with a tremendously complex linkage system, probably involving fly-by-wire steering and all sorts of elecronics and electric motors. And there's the whole question of steering feel, stability and road holding.

Whilst it's not really related to RWD (vs FWD) FWD cars tend not to suffer because their steering lock is restricted by the CV joints in the drive shafts - they simply can't achieve the lock to make the problem obvious. So they have a bigger turning circle. On the whole that doesn't matter because they tend to have a shorter wheelbase. Lexus could have restricted the lock to make a bigger turning circle but that maybe was seen as an unacceptable compromise.

One thing that might help if you are concerned about this is to reduce tyre pressures. Note the recommended pressure on the drivers door label for your tyres and set the pressues right at the bottom end of the range. That will enable the tyre to be more flexible and the distortion will compensate for the slightly incorrect track the wheel is trying to follow. If you are only driving in town you could drop the pressure by another pound or two if necessary. Just adjust the front wheel tyre pressures. If someone tries this, please let us know if it works!

Check the tyres are at least at the minimum pressures if you're driving on 'the open road'.

Good description of the physics going on….and good call on front vs rear wheel drive. As you say, fwd tends to have a more restrictive lock. I’ve recently established that the road surface makes all the difference..as I mentioned above my tyres pick up gravel in my drive prior to reaching the block paved area where I have to use a lot of left hand lock. On occasions there is so much metallic sounding noise you would swear the wheel nuts were all loose… I think the severity varies by conditions that make the gravel stick more readily and cold tyres.