Hydrogen nearly there then .... the Ls700h maybe

[dutchie01]

Dont want to crash the party here but all this is very experimental and IF it makes production you could be looking at years and years away. 2030 could be the goal. Not sure if i am still in the market for a new car by then..

On the other hand i do think it is great that all routes will be explored as it is not for old gits like me but for my children and grandchildren. Typing this mid winter and 14 degrees. Hope they speed up a bit!

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Dont want to crash the party here but all this is very experimental and IF it makes production you could be looking at years and years away. 2030 could be the goal.

In 2024 it could be possible to get hydrogen not too far from you:

German roads will see the first of 5K hydrogen trucks this year

GP Joule in Reußenköge in Schleswig-Holstein said the vehicles will start rolling out in mid-2023.

GP Joule from Germany’s northernmost state of Schleswig-Holstein has announced its intentions to roll out 5,000 hydrogen trucks across Germany, with the first ones to hit the roads by mid-2023.

They use H2 as an alternative to expensive batteries for heavy duty vehicles that need rapid refueling.

The company has said that they will be able to roll out the hydrogen trucks starting in 2023 even as subsidies as high as €9,000 per vehicle have been aimed at electric cars, starting early this year, according to an announcement from the Federal Motor Transport Authority.

GP Joule plans to complete the rollout of the total 5,000 H2-powered vehicles by the close of 2027.

“We are building the market for green hydrogen ourselves,” said GP Joule CEO Ove Petersen. “Until now, the company has operated plants for generating renewable energy from the sun, wind and biomass. Petersen is now aiming to put 5,000 electric lorries in the 40-ton class on German roads by 2027 with freight forwarders as customers.”

The hydrogen trucks will use fuel cell technology to generate their own electricity on board the vehicle.

The H2 vehicles will have a range of about 400 kilometers (just under 250 miles) per full tank. That said, the company expects that the widespread use of these vehicles throughout Germany will require about 150 filling stations, starting in Schleswig-Holstein, where the vehicles will first roll out.

“We are building new wind and solar farms throughout Germany, and drawing on existing ones,” explained Petersen about the plan to ensure the necessary filling stations will be in place as the vehicles start hitting German roads. “The first lorries will be on roads in the second half of 2023. Another 500 in 2024, then another 1,000 every year.”

Over the next five years, there will need to be an installed capacity of 2.5 gigawatts in order to meet the demand for H2. That said, there is considerable interest for the hydrogen trucks. “Demand for our zero-emission transport services among logistics companies is extremely high,” said Petersen.

[Malc1]

I think I'm remembering reading that both Holland and Luxembourg now run Hydrogen trucks very regularly

Malc

[Las Palmas]

Toyota liquid hydrogen car to be tested in endurance races this year

The automotive company seeks to make H2 vehicles commercially viable.

It’s well known that Toyota Motor is invested in developing hydrogen-powered vehicles, and the company intends to test its current liquid hydrogen car in 2023 endurance race events for the purpose of improving upon the technology.

The company hopes to address certain challenges the car faces.

Toyota hopes that by subjecting the car to endurance races, it will improve the nascent technology’s functionality as well as address some of it challenges. One of these challenges is how to keep liquid hydrogen at -253 degrees Celsius.

 

The reason the company is focusing on a liquid hydrogen car is that when used in its liquid form instead of its gaseous state, hydrogen can double the mileage of a car. This would make it possible for hydrogen refuelling stations to be built smaller.

Additionally, while gaseous hydrogen tanks work well for commercial vehicles, Toyota feels that liquid hydrogen tanks are more sensible for passenger cars due to the fact that they allow for greater flexibility when it comes to their shape, and they are lighter than H2 gas tanks

The liquid hydrogen car won’t be the first H2 car Toyota has tested in endurance races.

Toyota has previously used endurance races to test and accelerate the viability of hydrogen fuel vehicles. Back in May 2021, it debuted a car equipped with a hydrogen-powered combustion engine. During the 24-hour race at the Fuji International Speedway in Shizuoka Prefecture, the specially adapted Toyota Corolla fuelled by hydrogen was piloted by Toyota President Akio Toyoda, as well as other drivers.

At its maiden appearance, the H2-enhanced Toyota Corolla ran for 11 hours and 54 minutes. After which, the vehicle spent eight hours being repaired and four hours refuelling. Last November (2022), Toyota raced the car again, this time with additional enhancements, including improving the engine’s output by 24% and its driving range by approximately 30%. The cases of abnormal fire-causing combustion in the engine were reduced as well.

“We’ve made a small move from testing the technology toward a product that can be mass-produced,” said Toyota’s chief branding officer, Koji Sato.

Toyota began test runs of its liquid hydrogen car at the end of October and will enter endurance races later this year.

 

[Las Palmas]

New research leads to major breakthrough for solar-powered hydrogen production

 

Novel catalyst is nearly ten times more efficient than previous artificial photosynthesis experiments.

 

University of Michigan researchers have achieved a sun-powered water-splitting hydrogen production breakthrough with a new type of solar panel that has achieved 9% efficiency in converting water into hydrogen and oxygen.

The new device can drive down the cost of producing sustainable H2.

 

While this new catalyst is highly efficient, one of its major advantages is lowering the cost of sustainable hydrogen production. This is made possible by shrinking the semiconductor, which is usually the part of the device that is the most expensive.

The team’s semiconductor is a self-healing device that is capable of withstanding high temperatures and concentrated light that is equivalent to 160 suns.

“We reduced the size of the semiconductor by more than 100 times compared to some semiconductors only working at low light intensity. Hydrogen produced by our technology could be very cheap,” said Peng Zhou, first author of the study and U-M research fellow in electrical and computer engineering, in a recent University of Michigan press release.

The results of the researchers’ solar hydrogen production method are made possible thanks to two advances.

 

The first advancement is the ability to concentrate sunlight without eradicating the semiconductor that harnesses the light. The second advancement is utilizing the higher energy part of the solar spectrum to conduct water splitting and the lower part of the solar spectrum to deliver heat that promotes the reaction.

Unlike other catalysts that degrade each time they are used to harness sunlight to make chemical reactions for hydrogen production, this semiconductor catalyst actually improves itself with use.

Beyond its ability to handle high light concentration intensities, the catalyst can flourish in high temperatures that are typically destructive to computer semiconductors. The benefit here is that the higher the temperature, the faster the water splitting process. Moreover, the additional heat also promotes the hydrogen and oxygen to remain separated. As a result, the research team was able to harvest more hydrogen.

The catalyst used for the hydrogen production method is composed of indium gallium nitride nanostructures, which is grown onto a surface made of silicon. The light is captured by the semiconductor wafer and is converted into free electrons and holes, which are positively charged gaps that result when electrons are freed by the light. Nanoscale balls of metal (1/2000th of a mm across) pepper the nanostructures and use those electrons and holes to assist in directing the reaction.

A basic insulating layer over the panel keeps the temperature at 75°C (167°F). This is warm enough to aid in the reaction but also sufficiently cool for the semiconductor catalyst to be able to perform well.

“In the end, we believe that artificial photosynthesis devices will be much more efficient than natural photosynthesis, which will provide a path toward carbon neutrality,” said Zetian Mi, who lead the study and is a U-M professor of electrical and computer engineering.

Next, the research team will move on to further improve the efficiency and achieve ultra high purity hydrogen production that can be fed directly into fuel cells.

The study is published in the journal Nature.

 

[royoftherovers]

17 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

New research leads to major breakthrough for solar-powered hydrogen production

 

Novel catalyst is nearly ten times more efficient than previous artificial photosynthesis experiments.

 

University of Michigan researchers have achieved a sun-powered water-splitting hydrogen production breakthrough with a new type of solar panel that has achieved 9% efficiency in converting water into hydrogen and oxygen.

The new device can drive down the cost of producing sustainable H2.

 

While this new catalyst is highly efficient, one of its major advantages is lowering the cost of sustainable hydrogen production. This is made possible by shrinking the semiconductor, which is usually the part of the device that is the most expensive.

The team’s semiconductor is a self-healing device that is capable of withstanding high temperatures and concentrated light that is equivalent to 160 suns.

“We reduced the size of the semiconductor by more than 100 times compared to some semiconductors only working at low light intensity. Hydrogen produced by our technology could be very cheap,” said Peng Zhou, first author of the study and U-M research fellow in electrical and computer engineering, in a recent University of Michigan press release.

The results of the researchers’ solar hydrogen production method are made possible thanks to two advances.

 

The first advancement is the ability to concentrate sunlight without eradicating the semiconductor that harnesses the light. The second advancement is utilizing the higher energy part of the solar spectrum to conduct water splitting and the lower part of the solar spectrum to deliver heat that promotes the reaction.

Unlike other catalysts that degrade each time they are used to harness sunlight to make chemical reactions for hydrogen production, this semiconductor catalyst actually improves itself with use.

Beyond its ability to handle high light concentration intensities, the catalyst can flourish in high temperatures that are typically destructive to computer semiconductors. The benefit here is that the higher the temperature, the faster the water splitting process. Moreover, the additional heat also promotes the hydrogen and oxygen to remain separated. As a result, the research team was able to harvest more hydrogen.

The catalyst used for the hydrogen production method is composed of indium gallium nitride nanostructures, which is grown onto a surface made of silicon. The light is captured by the semiconductor wafer and is converted into free electrons and holes, which are positively charged gaps that result when electrons are freed by the light. Nanoscale balls of metal (1/2000th of a mm across) pepper the nanostructures and use those electrons and holes to assist in directing the reaction.

A basic insulating layer over the panel keeps the temperature at 75°C (167°F). This is warm enough to aid in the reaction but also sufficiently cool for the semiconductor catalyst to be able to perform well.

 

“In the end, we believe that artificial photosynthesis devices will be much more efficient than natural photosynthesis, which will provide a path toward carbon neutrality,” said Zetian Mi, who lead the study and is a U-M professor of electrical and computer engineering.

 

Next, the research team will move on to further improve the efficiency and achieve ultra high purity hydrogen production that can be fed directly into fuel cells.

 

The study is published in the journal Nature.

 

 

A nice informative post John.

Just wait for the reaction when you tell the Membership about VW`s new Hydrogen fuelled car !🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Las Palmas]

42 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

A nice informative post John.

Just wait for the reaction when you tell the Membership about VW`s new Hydrogen fuelled car !🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

VW have made many good thing and bad things as well. Just like many other have. Have been deep in Sahara in a very old Beetle long time ago. Porsche boxer engine, the old one similar to the one in the Beetle is a masterpiece. Subaru is still using that technology.  BENEFITS OF THE BOXER ENGINE: Flat layout allows engine output to flow directly into the transmission. This linear flow of power reduces engine components and inefficiencies, resulting in better fuel economy.

Toyota is trying to get temperature so long down that they can get twice the distance of the same amount of fuel. Could they be trying to get to Le Mans 24 hours race with a hydrogen car in a couple of years? Would be a masterpiece and boost value of the brand.

We have a Lexus, It is OK and more than that. It is a good car, but I am in no way a fan of any brand. Several automakers are getting the quality right; now it is not just Honda, Nissan, Subaru and Toyota; Hyundai and Kia are coming. Honda and Yamaha make excellent engines for marine use. Do not believe the fans of Lexus here in the forum, that German cars are garbage. You have an old MB to prove them wrong, and the 3L 5-cylinder 240 diesel was a great car. When engine was running it was possible to have a 5 Deutschmark piece standing on the edge without falling off. Not a shaky engine. Powerful and efficient. Covered many kilometres in that. When I was still working with Mercedes, we were informed that a 190 diesel had covered 1.000.000km with same engine and no major repair.

We enjoyed the 300SEL with a 6.3L engine almost a year and except for finding a parking place to the monster it was a fine car, windshield wipers were not good either.

BMW, I have only poor memories of. Both I had were disasters.

[Steven Lockey]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:22 PM, Las Palmas said:

The inside of racing- and rally-cars are not as pretty as the inside of our Lexus cars either.

The hydrogen container in the rear of the Corolla GR Cross does not look much bigger than the LPG gas tanks and not bigger than most gasoline tanks either.

Remember, if you spill hydrogen it is less dangerous than spilling gasoline.

Not sure where you got this idea from. Or most of the other things you've posted which are flat out wrong. 

1> In order to get any sensible fuel density out of hydrogen it has to be stored under high pressure.

Not only is the pressure itself dangerous if the tank is damaged at all, but this means it dumps out a high amount of hydrogen REALLY
quickly and causes it to mix with the air. If there is a spark.... well you've just got yourself what is commonly known as a fuel-air bomb....

And it means hydrogen tanks LEAK. The combination of the small size of the hydrogen atom and the pressure means it practically impossible
to not have leaks. 

2> You talk about advancements in hydrogen cars and how that will cause them to overtake EVs.... and completely ignore that EVs are getting many
advancements as well. There are multiple new Battery techs that will give the same range with 1/2 the current batteries that are going to to production
now as well as vastly decreasing recharge times. 

3> You efficiency equations missed out a big step. The hydrogen production which is very inefficient even with the new technologies mentioned earlier.
Not only are EVs themselves more efficient, it wastes a lot less energy transmitting the power to them over the grid than it does using the same energy
to produce hydrogen, pressurise said hydrogen and then transport it to the fueling station for the car. 

4> Low temps? Unless it's below -20' C, EVs generally lose a max of 10% of their range.

Are hydrogen cars completely useless? No of course not, they have their place certainly. It's just not a place that makes EVs useless either.

[Las Palmas]

 

47 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

Not sure where you got this idea from. Or most of the other things you've posted which are flat out wrong. 

1> In order to get any sensible fuel density out of hydrogen it has to be stored under high pressure.

Not only is the pressure itself dangerous if the tank is damaged at all, but this means it dumps out a high amount of hydrogen REALLY
quickly and causes it to mix with the air. If there is a spark.... well you've just got yourself what is commonly known as a fuel-air bomb....

And it means hydrogen tanks LEAK. The combination of the small size of the hydrogen atom and the pressure means it practically impossible
to not have leaks. 

2> You talk about advancements in hydrogen cars and how that will cause them to overtake EVs.... and completely ignore that EVs are getting many
advancements as well. There are multiple new battery techs that will give the same range with 1/2 the current batteries that are going to to production
now as well as vastly decreasing recharge times. 

3> You efficiency equations missed out a big step. The hydrogen production which is very inefficient even with the new technologies mentioned earlier.
Not only are EVs themselves more efficient, it wastes a lot less energy transmitting the power to them over the grid than it does using the same energy
to produce hydrogen, pressurise said hydrogen and then transport it to the fueling station for the car. 

4> Low temps? Unless it's below -20' C, EVs generally lose a max of 10% of their range.

Are hydrogen cars completely useless? No of course not, they have their place certainly. It's just not a place that makes EVs useless either.

Do you mean that inside, racing cars look beautiful?

 

So, you think that the engineers working for Toyota are complete idiots.

You are perfectly permitted to believe that.

Batteries lose efficiency in a rather limited time frame. Just look at cell phones and laptops. New batteries will cost so much that EV cars will be converted to fuel-cell cars or be landfill. Just wait. Before 2030 politicians will have found out that they were as wrong going 100% EV as they were when they promoted diesel.

Tanks should leak? How many LPG cars drive round without leaking gas?

[Mincey]

It won't be long before a hydrogen-powered IS comes to these shores. Mark my words!

[Las Palmas]

8 minutes ago, Mincey said:

It won't be long before a hydrogen-powered IS comes to these shores. Mark my words!

Would be nice as the IS looks really nice, but believe Toyota have other models coming before and VW seems to be rather far with their 2.000km range fuel-cell car.

[Steven Lockey]

2 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

 

Do you mean that inside, racing cars look beautiful?

 

So, you think that the engineers working for Toyota are complete idiots.

You are perfectly permitted to believe that.

Batteries lose efficiency in a rather limited time frame. Just look at cell phones and laptops. New batteries will cost so much that EV cars will be converted to fuel-cell cars or be landfill. Just wait. Before 2030 politicians will have found out that they were as wrong going 100% EV as they were when they promoted diesel.

Tanks should leak? How many LPG cars drive round without leaking gas?

When did I say that? I specifically stated hydrogen cars had a place.

Sure batteries drop off over time. Current batteries lose around 1% per year. Solid state batteries look like they will lose about a quarter of that so they will far outlast the rest of the car.
And then they aren't that difficult to recycle and make new batteries from. 

Hydrogen losses are considerably greater or requires a much more highly sealed system which is considerably heavier, larger and requires more maintenance and everything has to be manufactured to much higher tolerances.

Not sure why you are so bias against EVs but your bias has absolutely zero basis in reality.

[Las Palmas]

8 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

Not sure why you are so bias against EVs but your bias has absolutely zero basis in reality.

Not at all against electro motors, a well made one will outlast combustion engines. MTBF will for a brushless be at least 10 times the MTBF for the Battery powering it.

Not at all against batteries, just do not like to destroy the planet in search for the rare earth materials needed to make these, when knowing there is not enough to build batteries enough to serve as power stations for all transport needs. Without even mentioning the human cost for the poor people digging them out.

https://www.resources.org/resources-radio/rare-earths-101-digging-facts-jordy-lee/

For hydrogen, on the other hand, there is no real problem as it goes back to the state it was in before when it has been used.

So, continue the destruction of our planet in search for precious batteries.

https://hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/

https://www.sciencehistory.org/learn/science-matters/case-of-rare-earth-elements-history-future

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10105-2

if you want more disasters, just search Google.  If you want possitive for EV's ask politicians before they find out they again are wrong.

[Las Palmas]

15 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

A nice informative post John.

Just wait for the reaction when you tell the Membership about VW`s new Hydrogen fuelled car !🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Thank you John,

Many things are happening, several places hydrogen is being used in transport now and as soon as filling stations will be available most places, I think that cars and fuel will come down to reasonable price. VW have a contract with a hydrogen provider and if a car with a range of 2000km will be available it will not be so often most of us will need to refuel. The new Mirai is now close to 1000km in range. Tour through Europe and back home without needing to refuel?

[Malc1]

37 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

The new Mirai is now close to 1000km in range. Tour through Europe and back home without needing to refuel?

I personally hadn't realised the imminent and amazing range of the Mirai ........  my Ls700 hydrogen must surely just be around the next bend whenever i see a BP service station being refurbished 

Malc

[Mincey]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

For hydrogen, on the other hand, there is no real problem as it goes back to the state it was in before when it has been used.

I do find it surprising that the eco-loons* can't see this whilst they try to inflict planet-destroying EVs upon us all.

(* can I say that?)

[Steven Lockey]

8 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Not at all against electro motors, a well made one will outlast combustion engines. MTBF will for a brushless be at least 10 times the MTBF for the battery powering it.

Not at all against batteries, just do not like to destroy the planet in search for the rare earth materials needed to make these, when knowing there is not enough to build batteries enough to serve as power stations for all transport needs. Without even mentioning the human cost for the poor people digging them out.

https://www.resources.org/resources-radio/rare-earths-101-digging-facts-jordy-lee/

For hydrogen, on the other hand, there is no real problem as it goes back to the state it was in before when it has been used.

So, continue the destruction of our planet in search for precious batteries.

https://hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/

https://www.sciencehistory.org/learn/science-matters/case-of-rare-earth-elements-history-future

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10105-2

if you want more disasters, just search Google.  If you want possitive for EV's ask politicians before they find out they again are wrong.

Yep, and that is countered by the increased energy cost of producing hydrogen as well as the massive facilities they need to build to
produce said hydrogen. Every mile in a hydrogen car has over double the energy cost of a EV due to the inefficiencies in the process over
and above that of an EV. Then when you take into account the extra production facilities, transport e.t.c. for that hydrogen and the fact
hydrogen cars are less efficient as well as the extra power production needed..... well it brings it back into balance with EVs. 

Assuming you are producing all that hydrogen from green sources.... where exactly are you getting the rare earth minerals needed to build
the wind/tidal farms to produce the extra energy needed? Oh right... mining....

Again, you take all the bad stuff about EVs and ignore the downsides of Hydrogen completely. 

Is mining an issue. 100% it is. But it's not an unsolvable one and applies to both. 

[Malc1]

4 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

are you getting the rare earth minerals needed to build
the wind/tidal farms to produce the extra energy needed?

I sure hadn't realised there was a need for Rare Earth materials to build a windfarm or a tidal barrier  .  thought they would be constructed from natural materials and steel and maybe concrete or natural stone etc  ..  the storage of the electricity produced might of course require some products ,  and i know not what ........  might be like a solar panel farm somewhere  ........  but those " rare " materials would be maybe common and easy and safe to obtain

Maybe the normal stuff we would use to power-up our usual capacity for home and industrial use and  NOT for vehicle running ( apart from home plug=in EVs )

Please enlighten us  !

Malc

[Steven Lockey]

Just now, Malc1 said:

I sure hadn't realised there was a need for Rare Earth materials to build a windfarm or a tidal barrier  .  thought they would be constructed from natural materials and steel and maybe concrete or natural stone etc  ..  the storage of the electricity produced might of course require some products ,  and i know not what ........  might be like a solar panel farm somewhere  ........  but those " rare " materials would be maybe common and easy and safe to obtain

Maybe the normal stuff we would use to power-up our usual capacity for home and industrial use and  NOT for vehicle running ( apart from home plug=in EVs )

Please enlighten us  !

Malc

Yep, several rare-earth minerals are used in the actual bit that generates electric. 
Neodymium is one of the main rare earths needed (far rarer than lithium or cobalt btw) and is used in practically every single wind-farm in existence today.

Solar cells also use rare-earth minerals so you can't get away from them there either.

Same as batteries its POSSIBLE to build them without rare-earths, however it's just not sensible to do so. You end up causing even more harm because
you need twice as many wind-farms to produce the same amount of energy, which requires much more of other materials which surprise surprise.... also 
harm the enviroment to produce (and would be far far more expensive to produce the same amount of electric).

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, Steven Lockey said:

Yep, several rare-earth minerals are used in the actual bit that generates electric. 
Neodymium is one of the main rare earths needed (far rarer than lithium or cobalt btw) and is used in practically every single wind-farm in existence today.

Solar cells also use rare-earth minerals so you can't get away from them there either.

Same as batteries its POSSIBLE to build them without rare-earths, however it's just not sensible to do so. You end up causing even more harm because
you need twice as many wind-farms to produce the same amount of energy, which requires much more of other materials which surprise surprise.... also 
harm the enviroment to produce (and would be far far more expensive to produce the same amount of electric).

So we just have to use some of this Rare Earth stuff anyway and there’s no point whingeing and whining about it 

The alternative is zero electric energy for our home - house and industrial needs and that’s a nonsense scenario 

Bit like moaning about eating the last mars bar in the pack 😄

Malc 

[Las Palmas]

We need power plants to produce the power we need no matter whatever kind of storage we are going to put that power in. Hydrogen can be stored years in containers, or till it is needed, while we all know that batteries self-discharge.

The way to get materials back from worn out or dead batteries is inefficient and polluting using among other thing extreme amount of water, which then needs to be cleaned using again more energy.

Most batteries for cars we buy from China and how is it to be depending on our best friends like the Russians with their gas and oil?

Hydrogen is made from Water and when the energy is used, we get back water. Materials used in batteries we do not get back when batteries are dead.

Instead of just being sad we can have a good piece of news that Porsche has developed a hydrogen engine prototype for luxury sports cars that will not only match a V8, 4.4-liter internal combustion engine while also reducing fuel consumption and maintaining emissions equivalent to ambient air.

 

[Steven Lockey]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

We need power plants to produce the power we need no matter whatever kind of storage we are going to put that power in. Hydrogen can be stored years in containers, or till it is needed, while we all know that batteries self-discharge.

 

The way to get materials back from worn out or dead batteries is inefficient and polluting using among other thing extreme amount of water, which then needs to be cleaned using again more energy.

 

Most batteries for cars we buy from China and how is it to be depending on our best friends like the Russians with their gas and oil?

 

Hydrogen is made from Water and when the energy is used, we get back water. Materials used in batteries we do not get back when batteries are dead.

 

Instead of just being sad we can have a good piece of news that Porsche has developed a hydrogen engine prototype for luxury sports cars that will not only match a V8, 4.4-liter internal combustion engine while also reducing fuel consumption and maintaining emissions equivalent to ambient air.

 

 

 

Yes and we need considerably MORE to use hydrogen. 

Amount lost through self-discharge is comparable to hydrogen leakage. It is basically impossible to store hydrogen without leaks which makes large scale hydrogen 
storage difficult... you don't want to get a potentially expensive build-up. 

Rare earths aren't actually reliant on china, they are found practically everywhere. China were the ones who started exploiting them in large amounts first. Most countries can set up rare-earth extraction facilities which is actually happening at the moment in the US and multiple other countries.
And you still need more of these with hydrogen to product the extra power production facilities.

And yet again you ignore the production facilities for that hydrogen which wear out and need to be replaced. As well as the production facilities for the extra power needed for hydrogen which wear out and need to be replaced.

And good luck buying that porsche engine... even they admitted it would be much more expensive than a EV or ICE equivalent hence their statement they weren't going to put it into production. And no, emissions weren't equivalent to ambient air, it outputs a noticeable amount of NO2. Also they haven't even actually made a prototype of this engine at the moment, it's all a simulation on a computer at the moment.

So yet AGAIN, you ignore all the downsides of Hydrogen while listing all the downsides of EVs. 

To show how much extra energy is needed for hydrogen, lets do the math shall we. 

So let's start with electric cars, its much simpler, for both we'll start after the common stages that apply to both:

80% (transport efficiency) -> 85% (car efficiency) = 68% efficient use of produced power

Now lets try hydrogen
40% (hydrogen production efficiency) -> 70% (shipping hydrogen) -> 60% (car efficiency) = 16,8%

For every produced KWh, an EV actually converts FOUR TIMES as much to useable driving energy. 

And I picked the numbers with CURRENT EVs vs all the BEST hydrogen tech in development and assumed it will work and scale up.

It just shows how much more energy you need to produce in the first place for hydrogen cars to be remotely viable even in the best possible predictions. Trying to switch to hydrogen with the current tech would be basically impossible and even more so to actually produce the energy in a green manner. 

Stop ignoring the downsides of hydrogen just to try and make it look better in comparison.

[Las Palmas]

9 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

Yes and we need considerably MORE to use hydrogen. 

Amount lost through self-discharge is comparable to hydrogen leakage. It is basically impossible to store hydrogen without leaks which makes large scale hydrogen 
storage difficult... you don't want to get a potentially expensive build-up. 

Rare earths aren't actually reliant on china, they are found practically everywhere. China were the ones who started exploiting them in large amounts first. Most countries can set up rare-earth extraction facilities which is actually happening at the moment in the US and multiple other countries.
And you still need more of these with hydrogen to product the extra power production facilities.

And yet again you ignore the production facilities for that hydrogen which wear out and need to be replaced. As well as the production facilities for the extra power needed for hydrogen which wear out and need to be replaced.

And good luck buying that porsche engine... even they admitted it would be much more expensive than a EV or ICE equivalent hence their statement they weren't going to put it into production. And no, emissions weren't equivalent to ambient air, it outputs a noticeable amount of NO2. Also they haven't even actually made a prototype of this engine at the moment, it's all a simulation on a computer at the moment.

So yet AGAIN, you ignore all the downsides of Hydrogen while listing all the downsides of EVs. 

To show how much extra energy is needed for hydrogen, lets do the math shall we. 

So let's start with electric cars, its much simpler, for both we'll start after the common stages that apply to both:

80% (transport efficiency) -> 85% (car efficiency) = 68% efficient use of produced power

Now lets try hydrogen
40% (hydrogen production efficiency) -> 70% (shipping hydrogen) -> 60% (car efficiency) = 16,8%

For every produced KWh, an EV actually converts FOUR TIMES as much to useable driving energy. 

And I picked the numbers with CURRENT EVs vs all the BEST hydrogen tech in development and assumed it will work and scale up.

It just shows how much more energy you need to produce in the first place for hydrogen cars to be remotely viable even in the best possible predictions. Trying to switch to hydrogen with the current tech would be basically impossible and even more so to actually produce the energy in a green manner. 

Stop ignoring the downsides of hydrogen just to try and make it look better in comparison.

Cannot argue with a person that claim it is impossible to make a gas tank that does not leak, when the world is full of such.

That no matter how much material there is to make batteries, which still is not enough to make these batteries in sufficient number for all transportation needs, still claim that it is possible and do not at all care that the planet will be so destroyed digging everywhere that we will have no decent planet to live on, still claim that batteries are good for us no matter how short life batteries have with full power before they need to be replaced if they are to be useful.

That is willing to accept that only people with own solar electric plants on top of their own houses can charge their electric cars home and all the rest can wait in line to charge along the road.

That does not see that whichever amount of power it is needed to make it possible to transport people and goods and whatever there is not enough batteries to power it and that water from which hydrogen is made return to water after having given power to whatever purpose the power is for will return to Water from which new energy can be made.

So, this is my last response to locked up to electricity Steven.

[Steven Lockey]

I said practically impossible which is true for hydrogen due to the small size of the atom and the pressure involved. 
This is pretty basic engineering knowledge.... the world isn't full of these. There might be a few specifically designed to not
leak but these are rare extremely high tolerance examples not your common gas tank. 
The fact you don't know this is your issue.....

There is plenty of rare-earths actually, the issue is getting them with minimum environmental impact as they are hard to harvest.
Rare-earths, despite the name aren't actually rare.... and again you ignore the point that hydrogen needs JUST AS MUCH.....
Well unless you are planning to use oil/gas/coal to generate the hydrogen..... which would be stupid and defeat the point.

Again you need to educate yourself on the full costs of trying to switch everything to hydrogen.... not only the far higher energy
costs.... requiring more wind-farms e.t.c. (which need rare-earths), the hydrogen production plants themselves e.t.c.

Things that can't be "changed back to water".......  Just cos burning hydrogen produces water doesn't make it a magical substance
where all stages in the process are clean does it.

I notice you've not even TRIED to answer any of the facts I gave in my previous answer which says all it needs to about how much
you've actually looked into this subject.... Please stop spreading your ignorance and claiming they are facts. They aren't.

[Las Palmas]

Indian green hydrogen industry gets $2.11 billion government incentive plan

The country has approved a plan to invest 174.9 billion rupees for the promotion of clean H2.

India’s government has given its approval for a new green hydrogen incentive plan that will receive 174.9 billion rupees (US$2.11 billion) in funding.

The strategy is intended to assist India’s efforts to achieve net-zero carbon emissions by 2070, even as it currently continues to be one of the largest greenhouse gas emitters in the world. The incentive program is meant to help make clean H2 affordable and to keep the cost low over the next half decade, said Thakur while addressing the media. The country had already been hinting at the launch of such an incentive program in December.

The government expects the Indian green hydrogen sector investments to reach about $96.65 billion.

The Indian government believes that investments into the clean H2 sector as a whole will reach a total of about 8 trillion rupees ($96.65 billion).

India’s target is for the production of 5 million tonnes of clean H2 per year over the next five years. This will be achieved for the purpose of slashing approximately 50 million tons of carbon emissions. Simultaneously, this will also save one trillion rupees on imported fossil fuels, explained Thakur.

Both the United States and the European Union have also already approved green hydrogen incentive plans worth billions. These plans are components of larger carbon emission reduction strategies also meant to support economic growth and boost energy stability.

According to a recent report in the Globe and Mail, the current price tag associated with clean H2 production in India is between 300 and 400 rupees per kilogram (about $3.60 to $4.85). A number of energy companies in the country have expressed ambitious intentions for renewable H2, including Adani Enterprises, Indian Oil, Reliance Industries, ReNew Power, JSW Energy and Acme Solar.