Hd Tv Frequency

[Parthiban]

Thought I'd post this on here in case someone knows about this stuff or might have gone through it themselves...........

Basically we have an older Pioneer plasma (pre-dating HD readiness) so it doesn't have HDMI and stuff, but as my PS3 works fine via component, I thought things would be the same when I got a V+ box a few days ago.

However, all I got was a blank screen when I plugged in via component, and from some google searching it seems this is because the TV does not accept the V+ output of 720p @ 50Hz - it only accepts the PS3s output which is 720p @ 60Hz.

Does anyone know if there is any way round this?

[Mike_B]

Sounds like it might have been using NTSC for the PS3 connection?

Did you not get an engineer to install the V+ box? When I ordered mine, admittedly a few months ago now, it was mandatory to have an installation job done by them; he got mine working properly in no time, though I do have a more modern TV.

[redz_UK]

you may be able to use some sort of ntsc/pal conversion box although you will lose quality.. good excuse to buy a new TV!

[Steviewevie]

The PS3 does 50Hz as well, doesn't it ?

[Ellz]

I think its probably a menu on the PS3, my mates got a ps3 and we took it from his which runs on the HDMI to a mates place and tried to get it to work on scart cable and couldnt get anything at all, so guessing you need to get into a menu on the ps3 and change it over. But again this is me guessing lol

[Parthiban]

Nah the PS3 is 60Hz, that's why it works - I'm guessing Pioneer must have expected the UK to go the same way as the US in terms of HD and go for 60Hz but they were wrong..........

Having done a bit of research the first thing I'm going to try is to just plug straight into the screen omitting the tuner box and see if that works - apparently some people have had success with this method, not holding out any hope but would be awesome if it works.

There's no such thing as NTSC and PAL when it comes to HD is there? I guess essentially there is as we use 50Hz and the US uses 60Hz but the actual standards of NTSC and PAL are redundant with HD?

A new TV would be nice, but replacing a 50" TV that's working perfectly sounds like an unnecessary expense!

@Ellz: Not sure if I've misunderstood, but my PS3 is fine, it's the V+ box that isn't working

[Steviewevie]

As far as I understand, the PS3 will sense the connection and sync up accordingly. The PS3 can do 720p at 50Hz, but I think what's happening is that because your TV is apparently only accepting 60Hz for 720p, then that's what the PS3 decides to output. On a different TV you would probably find your PS3 syncing to 50Hz (since that's more usual for the UK, even on HD).

Sorry, I realise this doesn't help with your main question though ...

[Ellz]

@Ellz: Not sure if I've misunderstood, but my PS3 is fine, it's the V+ box that isn't working

Wops ignore me then.

Taxiiiii

[Parthiban]

As far as I understand, the PS3 will sense the connection and sync up accordingly. The PS3 can do 720p at 50Hz, but I think what's happening is that because your TV is apparently only accepting 60Hz for 720p, then that's what the PS3 decides to output. On a different TV you would probably find your PS3 syncing to 50Hz (since that's more usual for the UK, even on HD).

Sorry, I realise this doesn't help with your main question though ...

Actually you're probably right there, although mine is a US PS3 so I don't know if there are any differences - but seeing as it's been made as quite a universal device that is probably the case.

If the PS3 can output both frequencies, surely the conversion can't be that complicated and they're just being really annoying

@Ellz: Not sure if I've misunderstood, but my PS3 is fine, it's the V+ box that isn't working

Wops ignore me then.

Taxiiiii

No probs mate :)

[steve2006]

As far as I understand, the PS3 will sense the connection and sync up accordingly. The PS3 can do 720p at 50Hz, but I think what's happening is that because your TV is apparently only accepting 60Hz for 720p, then that's what the PS3 decides to output. On a different TV you would probably find your PS3 syncing to 50Hz (since that's more usual for the UK, even on HD).

Sorry, I realise this doesn't help with your main question though ...

Actually you're probably right there, although mine is a US PS3 so I don't know if there are any differences - but seeing as it's been made as quite a universal device that is probably the case.

If the PS3 can output both frequencies, surely the conversion can't be that complicated and they're just being really annoying

@Ellz: Not sure if I've misunderstood, but my PS3 is fine, it's the V+ box that isn't working

Wops ignore me then.

Taxiiiii

No probs mate :)

If you send me your TV model number I will see if I can find any info for you.

NTSC runs at 525 lines 60HZ and is the worst TV system in the world PAL runs at 625 lines and 50HZ the best in the world PAL was developed by a Professor Hanover and yes is German in origin.

The French did some thing really weird and use SECAM which is totally incompatible with either system OOO la la!

[el_gencer]

If your tv has a vga input on the back you might want to look at one of these.

http://www.hdfury.com/

This will convert the hdmi signal from the ps3 to a vga signal and you wont get these issue that you are having now. I have an older version and it worked great on my old plasma that only had a vga port for hi-res inputs.

I'd don't think its cheap, but its cheaper than a new tv and it makes it ready for any other HD source you might get in the future.

[Parthiban]

If you send me your TV model number I will see if I can find any info for you.

NTSC runs at 525 lines 60HZ and is the worst TV system in the world PAL runs at 625 lines and 50HZ the best in the world PAL was developed by a Professor Hanover and yes is German in origin.

The French did some thing really weird and use SECAM which is totally incompatible with either system OOO la la!

Cheers mate, the model number is PDP-503HDE :)

If your tv has a vga input on the back you might want to look at one of these.

http://www.hdfury.com/

This will convert the hdmi signal from the ps3 to a vga signal and you wont get these issue that you are having now. I have an older version and it worked great on my old plasma that only had a vga port for hi-res inputs.

I'd don't think its cheap, but its cheaper than a new tv and it makes it ready for any other HD source you might get in the future.

Thanks, have looked at the HDfury stuff and it would work, but I've also found another device which seems to be highly rated too called the high box that's a lot cheaper and appears to do the same job. If the direct option doesn't work that's probably what I'll go for.

[kev dood]

PS3 will be 60Hz output generally though will support most if not all the formats.

Some of the older panels will only accept a 60Hz input.

I work for Sony in TV group so know a little about these things ;-)

Is there a setting on the V+ box to change the output type to either 60Hz or NTSC etc or PAL60?

You also sure the settings for the video output of the V+ box are correct? You should still get a crappy CVBS output I would have thought so can see menu setups on that?

[Parthiban]

No the V+ box doesn't have different settings to change the frequency - however I've got it plugged through our Bose hifi which has an option for NTSC output but that didn't work either.

I'm waiting for the adaptor to see if the direct connection might work, otherwise I'm going to have to get a signal box to convert the 50Hz signal to VGA. One thing is can you convert an RGB signal via VGA to actual RGB (as in a component cable)?

[Parthiban]

Ok so my DVI-HDMI converter arrived today, so had a bash at working this out. Using the Bose VS-2 (AV switcher) plugged the screen directly to it's HDMI output omitting the screens tuner box.

I was amazed that there was actually a picture! As far as the Bose is concerned, DVDs now being upscaled looked really good, the only issue being a black and white bar at the top of the screen.

However the PS3 (which is still connected via component to the VS-2) was looking a little fuzzy (only slightly, but fuzzy all the same)

Any ideas what's causing the issues? Still to try the V+ box but going on the fact that everything I've read so far is correct, I'd imagine that should work too although how well I'm not sure yet.

[kev dood]

Good news.

Can you list all the equipment you have showing the types of AV outputs they have or that you would like to use (such as PS3 - Component or HDMI etc) and then all the AV inputs your TV has?

For me it would help me to get an idea of your system and how best to set it up.

I presume the cable you bought was DVI-I as standard DVI does not include audio. Or are you using seperate audio outputs?

[Parthiban]

Basically the TV has the screen, and a separate media receiver (which is the part that doesn't accept HD @ 50Hz)

The Bose hi-fi is handling all the audio and video, and as the cable between the screen and media box is simply a DVI cable, I'm removed the media box from the equation and simply connected the HDMI out from the Bose directly into the screen.

Basically I've got the V+ box and PS3 which will both eventually go into the Bose via HDMI, plus a VCR which is also into the Bose via S-video and everything comes out of it via HDMI.

I just want to figure out why I'm getting the black and white line at the top of the screen with the Bose (which otherwise has a stunning picture using this direct connection) and why the PS3 image is now a little fuzzy (when it was fine while using the media box)

[kev dood]

Sorry, a little confused.

I have the operating manual for that TV

http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/peeserv..._PDP-503HDE.pdf

Can you tell me, the 2 cables between the mediabox and the screen, what type are these 2? Is one DVI/HDMI and other?? Control maybe?

I would presume DVI as the mediabox has no HDMI inputs so would have thought they wouldn't have used it for output to screen but maybe??

Personally (hard to tell without seeing it) but I would have presumed that it would be better to use the mediabox in the loop as the software settings for picture control etc for the panel could have been done in there. So the video processing may (I say may) be done in the mediabox and not in the panel. Not always though. And if the image is good direct then could be ok. A question though, without the mediabox, do you still get on screen menus etc? Not that these get used much? But without the box, this could be the cause of the black and white lines you get - can you post a pic?

Problem with this is that the media box has no HDMI so thats a bummer.

To be honest, I would get a new TV which does full HD (i.e. 1080p panel etc). That TV is only a 720p panel and plasmas will suffer screenburn after a while - that tv is a few years old now I think.

But, saving spending dosh to do this and if the omission of the mediabox is ok then... you could use HDMI and/or component (RGB) for the PS3 as I think they output HD for gaming on the component (would have to check). Or just HDMI for it all as keep things tidy and easy. No point getting a super HDMI cable as you wont be passing 1080p down it, only 720p.

When you tried V+ box, did you go into mediabox or into screen? If into screen and didn't work, does it work ok into mediabox? Older panels were 60Hz and wouldn't support 50Hz from input - which yours doesn't - possibly for component only though)! Are there any options on the V+ box for the video output? If you use HDMI then shouldn't be a problem, but thinking about it you don't have HDMI the other end..............

Basically the mdeiabox will (or indicates it will) support PAL (i.e. 50hz) inputs - as the VCR/SCART inputs will be this format. What I think is happening is that inside the mediabox the chips will be converting all the different input types into the one output type (i.e. 1270x768 progressive DVI or ??) which will drive the panel. (BTW - All panels are progressive scan). Without the mediabox you might be limited in what you can input (i.e. 60Hz only and fixed res).

Your issue is being able to support PAL60 on your V+ box. PAL/NTSC are different colour formats. US is also different frequency to EU, theirs is crap :-)

How about setting the V+ box to 576 interlaced output? Can you get any pic?

It sounds like you have, or are looking to get a decent setup, maybe it would be worth just getting a newer TV which will support all the HD formats etc. The V+ box set at 720p on HD channels may cause you an issue anyway with HDCP (copy protection) as your TV wont have HDMI the other end. Unless you have an HDCP stripper?

Sorry for the long and possibly confusing mail, but have been jumping about this thread trying to remember bits and pieces. If you go for a new TV ( can always tell the missus you wanted to treat her and put the plasma in the dining room or bedroom!) - PM me.

[kev dood]

Thinking about it a bit and doing some digging, I don;t think it will ever work in any decent picture type way. TV is 60Hz, V+ box is 50Hz. Not a huge amount you can do about that and keep good picture quality.

Plus, to overcome this, and the HDCP issue etc - you may as well just buy a new TV! Not a massive amount more money and will get a bigger benefit in picture quality.

[Parthiban]

Lots of interesting info there mate, clearly you know about this stuff!

Yep the TV has no HDMI, and the only reason for trying to bypass the media box is that it will not allow an HD signal @ 50Hz whereas it's fine via scart as you say (even get 50Hz in the corner of the screen when viewing cable TV via scart)

The two cables between the screen and the media box, the white one carries the picture and is a DVI cable, the grey one as you say is a system cable.

While the media box doesn't allow 50Hz HD, the screen is simply a screen so technically 50Hz should be fine, yes it does no video processing but that's what the Bose is doing which is why the DVD picture from it directly into the screen is very good indeed, and also why people have had lots of success with stuff like the iScan scaler.

All your reasons for upgrading the TV are valid, I have no idea how much longer it will last (which is why I'm not too keen on buying an expensive scaler) but seeing as it cost £6k, I really want it to survive until OLED is out properly as I don't want to buy another plasma or LCD now and then find OLED to be vastly better in a few years time.

[kev dood]

The panel/screen will not accept 50Hz though. Thats 60Hz only it seems. The mediabox will take in 50Hz but just not HD.

Yeah scalers will not be cheap!! Regarding the Bose and picture processing, thats fine for things like edge enhancement and block noise reduction (from say freeview/sky where you can see the edges of the small macroblocks) but it will not be able to compensate for panel fundamentals which is what the mediabox will do.

Pioneer will know the characteristics of the panel (over time, temp etc) and any non linearities and be able to compensate for these in the image processing. Each individual set will have been setup and matched on the production line where they will do picture tests to program final settings.

Arguably its easier on a panel as you don't get convergance/geometry issues like you did on CRT but there will still be contrast issues and backlight problems etc.

Its always a pain when you have spent a considerable amount of money on what was a decent TV, only to find that time and standards have shafted you.

Regarding OLED, don't hold your breath. Will be a very long time before anything like 50" or so come out and even then, they may look superb but they suffer really badly from screenburn etc at the mo (due to Blue apparently!). They will also be mega money.

My view would be to spend a bit on a decent 50" now (if thats the size you are after) and then wait another 5-7 yrs for OLED etc. Your only choice would be, do you wait a few years (1/2) then get a Freesat TV so you can get BBC HD etc or just jump now.

Are you after an HD setup then or just wanting to get the Virgin you pay for and use your PS3? If latter, then try using SCART from the V+ box and if there is a setting then set it SD not HD. Same with PS3, though for this you have no issues with 720p60 HD so thats fine (component).

You could then either use the s-video for VCR or scart or even scart loopthrough the V+ if you have 2 scarts on V+ box.

What people seem to forget is that good (i.e. very high bit rate) SD looks damned good anyway, so the upping to HD is not so great. Its just a shame that people like ITV don't use a good bit rate much. Though now they simulcast some football on their HD channel, I have noticed that their SD football on ITV1 looks better!

Just a note, when you go HDMI to DVI - what do you intend to use that for? The final HDMI from Bose to screen? This will only work for things that don't use HDCP unless you strip it off.

[el_gencer]

Looking at these issue, i think it maybe better to spend the cash on the hdmi to vga converter. Or i have found one of these :-

http://www.cypeurope.com/cyp_techpage.php?...p;&parent=0

According to the info "50/60Hz frame rate conversion ensures glitch-free display." It should come with a cable to convert component to 15pin d-sub but you'd have to email and ask.

Hope this helps.

[Parthiban]

Just tried the V+ box via HDMI through to the screen and it worked! Which means that the screen will accept HD @ 50Hz, and it's the media box that's causing all the problems. Watched planet earth in HD and it looked stunning, although the picture probably isn't as good as it would be if it was going through the media box. However, unless I can get to the bottom of the fuzzy PS3 image, then this isn't a long-term solution.

Yep at the mo I have the PS3 hooked up via component which is fine, and the V+ via scart - just would be nice to use the HD capabilities of the V+ if possible but isn't the end of the world.

At the end of the day though this is still a really good TV, so no real point in changing it right now as the picture via scart is fine (although the 70" sony lcd looks great!). You're right that HDCP would be an issue, but only really with things like pay per view which I don't use that much anyway.

[kev dood]

That converter doesn't mention anything about HDMI - maybe wrong link?

If your V+ box does work directly then it should work through the Bose switcher. As you say, means the issue could be on the mediabox. Which in your case you could ditch and then hook it all up as you wanted - job done. Even with PS3 on HDMI?

Though, saying that, you may have an issue with HDCP at some point as most things that use it will always use it - there are issues with turning it on/off on channel change to pay per view channels or films etc, so Sky for example always use it.

To be clear, the V+ box through component didn't work though yes? But does on scart and HDMI?

You can get plenty of VGA to component cables. Shouldnt be an issue.

Post an image of the PS3 fuzzy pic. From memory, did you say its fine when HDMI connected to screen directly but not when put through Bose? Or was it component that was OK but HDMI not? When you got the fuzz, did you have any other video connection as well as HDMI connected?

Home time now.

[el_gencer]

Yeah that box is component only, i posted earlier on about the HDFury which has HDMI to VGA. I used to use a CYP UK HDMI to VGA box when i had a PS3 so that i can make use of 1080 plasma (only had VGA in for 1080). They dont appear to make that box anymore, i believe its due to the hazy area about the legality of such devices.