Supermarket Petrol - Good Or Not So Good?

[ChrisIS200SportTTE]

That's a good price for V power. I just filled up on Total 97 RON thinking it would be a bit cheaper than shell or esso ( I didn't check their prices ) but it was £1.45 per litre. Doh!! :(

[Argento]

noby76, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

I used V-Power and BP Ultra all the time i had my previous car, Golf GTI MkV

No trouble at all and excellent mpg

Good points raised by Tango and fjcfarrar though.

I think I'll just continue using V-Power, BP Ultra and Total Excellium.

I'll not bother using additives.

Argento

[Colin ck]

Ever since ICI started supplying fuel at service stations in the 1970's I have monitored some of the problems with fuel systems.

As a Motor Association patrol we had to strip carburettors down to clean them out and the sediment that came out of float chambers was immense. So I always asked the driver which brand of fuel they used. I never bought fuel from these companies.

I never came across a blocked injector which would initiate a call to us but they could become inefficient with deposits. That would not affect us as patrols.

The same went for diesels and EGR valves! It is only my own point of view, limited experimentation & info from MOT testers that made me decide never to use supermarket, unknown brands and especially recycled fuels.

I use BP Ultimate (no Shell in the area) diesel all of the time, mainly because I do short runs with the occasional long one and I want to keep my EGR valve clean.

The cost is usually 10p - 11p more per litre than regular diesel but I enjoy peace of mind.

It works for me!

[Tango]

Well believe it or not, but after running 3/4 of the tank with the Tunap 973 my average mpg appears to have consistently increased by 3-4 mpg. If I had filled the tank with a higher RON rated fuel it would have taken a few tankfulls before the ECU caught up with changes, so I can only assume the 973 is responsible for the slight improvement.

My assessment is based on comparison of the displayed averages for the same journeys, and similar driving style, before and after using the additive. Still nothing to get excited about, but low 20's seems so much better than mid to high teens from that thirsty V8.

[Tegs200]

Well I use Sainsbury fuel and the engine is as sweet as a nut plus I managed this average in my is250 auto with tank average being 35.2

[ronsis]

it also depend which part of the country you are in too... the south east has been using VOPAK terminal for over a year now since the old bp refinary closed... all the fuel comes in by ship from various refinaries in europe ( very high% bio fuel and very corrosive !!!) and are sometimes very noticable in difference just by smell and colour ! ( so god knows what else is affected) not everyone has their own additives added either, shell use greenergy and harvest additives as they cant have shell additive injected ( logistics/polotics)at the frome are seperate point of loading . this wasn't a problem when the old bp refinary at coryton was running as it was all plumbed in.. esso are the only ones who have their own supply and therefore the correct additives etc you take pot luck at the moment in the south east... all the premium fuels... v power / momentum/ excellium are fine but bp ultimate is shadey as they are no longer in their own terminal and are loading "super unleaded " with someone elses additive too...!

west country supplies are from avonmouth and plymouth and it would be wrong if i commented on their set up as it has been a few yrs since i loaded out of there... the same goes for the northwest ( shell stanlow) and jarrow ( which is a 3rd party supplier..)

in the meantime... i'm sticking with normal branded fuel with my own tweak/additive until the terminal reopens later this summer.... i'll report back when things are up and running ...

[dave32]

bloody hell ronsis your clearly a man in the know

[ChumpusRex]

Can't say I know who is using which fuel, as I don't work in the industry, but from friends and relative who do, there is a huge amount of "sharing" of fuels and additives, with the exception of most of the "premium" stuff.

Things in the UK are a bit better than they are in the US, where regulations on the quality of fuel are generally weaker. Additionally, EU regulations on fuel quality tend to be tweaked as engine technology changes, whereas in the US, fuel laws are very much historical. As a result, the yanks have this thing called "top tier gasoline" which is a higher specification of fuel, agreed by a consortium of major car manufacturers an oil companies. This "top tier" fuel far exceeds the US legal standard for various measures of quality, including detergent performance, and is strongly recommended by car manufacturers there, some to the point of making the regular use of "top tier" fuel a condition of warranty (or at least trying to, as this isn't always legal). In general, the legal minimum standard for fuel in the UK, is at least as good as US "top tier".

Personally, for my IS250, I buy supermarket fuel - usually asda. I've never had a problem with pinking or bad running with this fuel - although once did get some dodgy fuel from a branded outlet. Due to the rampant sharing of fuel in the industry, I suspect any outlet can get dodgy fuel, not just supermarkets.

My personal preference is to always buy from the busiest forecourt, this way, you can be sure of getting the freshest fuel (with all the volatile components still in it), as I reckon stale fuel is more of a problem than simply "bad" fuel - but I cannot substantiate this in any way.

I also occasionally use a fuel additive. I use Archoil AR6400, which is sold as an injector cleaner, but I tend to use it as a trace additive - about 20 ml in a full tank. Essentially, this additive is a primarily a mixture of chemicals called PEAs. A similar (but almost certainly not the same) mixture of PEAs is used as a "top tier" additive at a concentration of 400 parts per million.

Be a little bit careful with other types of additive - most are more suitable for diesel than they are for petrol. For example, Archoil sell an additive called AR6200, which is supposed to be used regularly. However, reading up the patents it claims, it's basically designed for oil-fired boilers, as a fuel preservative (anti-algae, and anti sludging), problems which aren't much of an issue with road vehicles, especially petrol vehicles.

Some additives, including this one, also contain "combustion catalysts". These are a legitimate technology for diesel engines, where they reduce soot formation and improve (very slightly) output. Similar catalysts used to be used in petrol, but are no longer considered appropriate, due to the use of catalytic converters. Essentially, combustion catalysts are some form of soluble metal-containing chemicals (usually iron, magnesium or cerium); during combustion, the metal is released and assists the combustion process. The problem is that while the fuel burns completely to nothing, the metal does not; it leaves an ash residue behind. If you have a catalytic converter, the ash will tend to get trapped in the honeycomb, and clog it up. As a result, metal additives are banned from petrol in the EU, and are banned from "top tier" gasoline in the US. This is less of a problem with diesels, but could potentially affect modern catalyst/DPF vehicles (that said, some DPF/catalyst manufacturers do require combustion catalysts - e.g. the Rhodia DPF/catalyst system used on Peugeot/Citroen cars, requires the use of a cerium catalyst with every fill up. To do this, the manufacturer builds a tank of cerium catalyst solution into the car at the factory, and every time you fill up, the ECU dispenses a dose of catalyst into the fuel tank. There's a big bill at 40k miles when the factory catalyst tank runs out - and ignoring it leads to bigger bills because without the catalyst, the DPF tends to clog up with soot).

There are other potential issues with catalyst additives in petrol cars, which is that unburned metal catalyst gradually gets deposited on the spark plug, including the insulator. This was never a problem in the old-days, as plugs were replaced every 6-10k miles before a major deposit could form. With iridium plugs lasting 60-80k miles, some experts suggest that this could be an issue (and is part of the reason why metal catalysts are not recommended for modern petrol cars), although I have no idea how much of an issue this really is.

In light of the above, my use of the archoil PEA probably isn't ideal, as it does have metal catalysts in it. However, it clearly has loads of PEA in it, because it has an absolutely overpowering smell of amines (decanting it is quite an experience). So I suspect that it's probably more powerful than some other stuff; e.g. tunap 973 which is basically alcohol with trace amounts of amine/imide type detergents.

The problem fundamentally with the fuel additive industry, is that it's heavily patented, and every man and their dog have their own "secret recipe" based upon various combinations of chemicals (mainly amines, and Mannich condensates), and typically, the additives are not available, expect to fuel distributors/franchisees. This makes true controlled comparisons very difficult.

[Guest bigbullhead]

We all add an additive to our fuels so do the big companies yes supermarket fuel is made to the minimum required for the uk market but not with anything in it to look after your engine just because the supermarket fuel moves your car does not mean it keeps the internals of the engine clean

I would never use supermarket fuel my choice but the above is what I believe in

[Argento]

We are very fortunate to have ronsis and others contributing to our forum.

Thanks.

Just a quick basic question

How is the RON established.

Is it as it comes out of the refinery?

Or, do additives have something to do with it?

Argento

(V-Power, Excellium and Ultimate in my IS250 F-Sport)

[ronsis]

thats all done in the processing stages.. millions of tonnes of the juice is made ( to a certain mix/recipe/strength ) at a time and sampled at different stages of the process and adjusted acordingly.. by men in white coats. im sure there must be a video on youtube detailing whats done, but theres only one grade now... ( except the ultimates and v powers etc) and the industry standard will probably be very similar where ever you are in the world.. when it hits the right notes in the lab, it gets released.... well ours does...

aditives are added at the point of loading by means of in line injection...

now i want to go talk to our white coat staff.. they'll probably bu66er me off... :shruriken:

[thesmileyone]

I noticed a specific performance difference using Tesco Super Octane (cant remember its' exact name) vs Shell Vpower in my 280hp a3 tfsi. However due to that performance I was only getting 180 miles to a full tank (hard driving, at night, A and B roads.

For every other car I just use Asda.

[Argento]

thats all done in the processing stages.. millions of tonnes of the juice is made ( to a certain mix/recipe/strength ) at a time and sampled at different stages of the process and adjusted acordingly.. by men in white coats. im sure there must be a video on youtube detailing whats done, but theres only one grade now... ( except the ultimates and v powers etc) and the industry standard will probably be very similar where ever you are in the world.. when it hits the right notes in the lab, it gets released.... well ours does...

aditives are added at the point of loading by means of in line injection...

now i want to go talk to our white coat staff.. they'll probably bu66er me off... :shruriken:

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Very interesting and useful.

Just to be absolutely clear.

<...but theres only one grade now... ( except the ultimates and v powers etc) >

So that means "batches" of RON 97/98/99 etc. are specifically processed foor the Ultimates, V[Power, and Excelliums etc. , right?

Argento

[ronsis]

Just to be absolutely clear.

<...but theres only one grade now... ( except the ultimates and v powers etc) >

So that means "batches" of RON 97/98/99 etc. are specifically processed foor the Ultimates, V[Power, and Excelliums etc. , right?

Argento

yes..... the old refinery down here at coryton.(ex BP) should be reopening at the end of july... so proper fuelsave unleaded (shell) and BP's own with their own aditive should be back then.. I'll post when it does re open properly..

SHELL V POWER IS STILL GOOD.......(brought in by ship from shells refinery in holland )

BP ULTIMATE...... NOT TOO SURE HOW THEY GET THEIR OWN ADITIVES INTO OTHER PEOPLES 99 RON (bare )FUEL.... ( WOULDN'T LIKE TO SAY.......)

EXCELLIUM...? (total) LIKEWISE...

but as i said, that will hopefully change soon.

funny thing..... tescos own 99ron actually beat shell optimax a few yrs back in lab tests.....

[Argento]

Thanks very much.

That's good to know.

I'll definitely keep using V-Power now!

<I'll post when it does re open properly.>

That's good of you. Thanks again.

Argento

[Guest bigbullhead]

Having a terra clean today will let you all know the outcome good or bad

[Argento]

ronsis, this is probably old news to you.

It probably happened 'down South' ages ago.

Off-topic I know. Apologies.

Anyway, all the Total stations up here (Durham) are converting to Esso this week.

No more Excellium.

The chap at the counter of the Excellium station I called at this morning (car wash not fuel!) explained why the Total signs are being ripped off the roof of the pump area.

Apparently, Total are getting out of the market.

They've sold 800 or so stations to RonTech?

They in turn have made a packet selling half of them on to Esso.

Better buy some more Esso shares .... :-)

Argento

[Argento]

Having a terra clean today will let you all know the outcome good or bad

Yes, do that. Thanks,

Very interested to know.

Argento

[ronsis]

Ron tech ( shell) has been in situ for a couple of yrs.... you just haven't been made aware of them

It's still shells fuel ( where avail) if your up north in them..

A BP guy told me last night that the ultimate is running from Hemel... if your down here in the south so you don't have to worry about BPs additives in their 99 ton..

[Argento]

Ok. Thanks for that.

At the risk of testing your patience .... :-)

Earlier you said, "aditives are added at the point of loading by means of in line injection... "

Does that mean, _loading_into the road tanker at the refinery?

And while I'm about it, what does "in line injection" mean?

Argento

[ronsis]

yes... as its beeing pushed into the actual tanker.... by means of a little 1cm pipe (that joins onto the main supply)squirting the measured amount in every couple of seconds.... mixes as it goes in...

[Argento]

Got it now. Thanks.

A great explanation, by the way.

Argento

[Argento]

ronsis, is there anything you can safely, share with us re. Tesco Momentum 99 fuel?

I've just returned from the BTCC qualifying at Croft.

Tesco Momentum 99 had a big presence there.

Pr/publicity trailer/caravan displays.

Telling you where you can get Momentum 99

Lots of sales people.

Plato and Tordoff MG6s covered in Tesco Momentum 99 fuel stickers.

Plato got pole btw!

Is it the fuel. ... ? ha-ha

Argento

[ChumpusRex]

Momentum 99 is made by Greenergy, whereas Shell seem to blend their own 99 RON forumla for their V-power Nitro+. Shell specify it to be 5% ethanol, but then pretty much all unleaded sold in the UK current does, in order to meet the government's biofuel target. Although Greenergy specify their fuel to contain up to 5% ethanol, their 99 product usually contains less ethanol (usually between 1.5 and 2%). They publish a monthly analysis of their fuels. http://www.greenergy.com/Products_services/test_results/99_octane/99octane_2013.05.pdf

Higher octane fuel generally tends to have a lower energy content than lower octane fuel, but if the ECU is tuned for high RON, then it is possible that you get slightly more performance and slightly better fuel consumption with the higher octane fuel, despite the fact that it is more "dilute". That said, ethanol is much more dilute than "petrol", so a 5% ethanol content will knock about 2% off the energy content of "pure" petrol.

Looking at the figures from my IS250's ECU, which generally only gets fed 95, the ECU does claim to have knocked a couple of degrees off the ignition timing, so it may actually be tuned for 98. I might run a few tanks of 99 and see if the ECU advances the timing, or whether the Euro-spec ECU comes pre-set to the less aggressive timing.

Neither fuel company are particularly forthcoming with regards to their additive package. Shell are obviously aggressively marketing their Nitro+ additive, which is said to be puchased from the additive company lubrizol. However, only an insider would really know, because I doubt that Shell publish what's in it or where it comes from. It wouldn't surprise me if Greenergy buy from the same additive supplier, even if it's not the same product. That said, you can't blame shell from promoting their new additive - a state-of-the art additive may only add 0.05 - 0.1p/l to the cost of the fuel, but can command a price premium of 3p/l (nice profit if you can get it).

Oh, and Greenergy and Shell have recently announced a Joint Venture with regard to revamping a major refinery - wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of "cross-pollnation" in terms of sharing fuel blends. That said, Greenergy already supply most supermarkets with fuel, as well as many Esso stations.

[Argento]

Bh!

That is a lot of useful information you're sharing with us here ChumpusRex.

Thank you very much.

So now we have TWO experts on this subject visiting the Forum.

We are indeed very fortunate.

On a very mundane point.

The Tesco Momentum 99 people were handing out fistfuls of "5p off a litre" vouchers at yesterday's BTCC at Croft.

So you might want to watch out for them at Silverstone this weekend.

Argento