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Exhaust broke, check hybrid system related?


Upex
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Hi all, 

Wanted to canvas opinion if I may.

Car is 2006 450h se-l, circa 158k miles.

Driving to work today, very wet and very crappy roads, the exhaust decided to sheer off between front and back sections, great.

Lots more noise and less go, so did the extra 2 miles to work no problems.

Driving back home, did about 11 miles no issues and then had to stop at temporary lights in a very awkward place. Soon as stopped the ready light went out and car effectively stalled. 

Restarted, ready light on, only to go off few moments later before I could pull away. Did this about 5 times and then I got the check hybrid system message come on, plus few other errors, vgrs and such. I had to hold foot lightly on the gas to get the engine to fire up and stay on to keep car ready to move to not be stranded there, blocking traffic and causing utter chaos. Whilst doing this for the longest light change ever, the engine light also came on after a few moments.

Made it home with some petrol driving, electric driving, slows, acceleration, turns and stops etc, brought car to stop to make 3 point turn, did it and parked all fine, but with hybrid warning and check engine light still on, but think the vgrs and such had gone.

Turned off and on again and errors still there, but was lit ready.

Ran in house thinking 'not now' given my second car was just taken off the road due to mot failures (bushes and usual consumable easy stuff, just lack of time) and just been hit with redundancy notice, but also wondering if the hybrid/engine light could be related to exhaust being broke, or is just the most freeky coincidence ever given I've had the car 3 or 4 years, and apart from a flat Battery in tpms and boot, plus a leaky shock and broken exhaust y piece (consumables again and expected with age/miles) she seriously hasn't missed a beat in all this time. Best old car I've ever had by miles.

So, anyone know if a broken exhaust could do this?

Can't get her on tech stream to pull codes as all parking spaces are full near house and dont have extension long enough to reach others (laptop Battery is goosed so needs to be plugged in)

Thanks for any input 😊

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Hi Robert. Is the HV Battery still showing being charged on the display? and at what level on the bar graph was it when the problem appeared?
I do not think this is related to the exhaust, but possibly by water in the electrics. If water caused the engine to stop with a relatively low HV Battery, and then the engine started from it 5 times it could have bought the Battery down to a level that would issue a fault code with the message you have.

A low or faulty HV Battery will not cause the engine to stall, and this is the area you need to look at first. This is where a Mini VCI with Techstreem is required. I think you will have the dreaded P0A80 code, but this may disappear, and go to history after a few starts with reasonable runs. There should be some codes to show why the engine stopped.

You can run your laptop of a 12 to 230 volt inverter or a laptop power supply designed to run fro a 12 volt Battery

John.

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Hi John, thanks for the reply.

The traction Battery had good charge when it happened, like 2 bars from full. The 12v Battery should be good to, as it's only 6mths old or so and car has been used daily and not stood etc.

Yes was showing as charging when driving before it happened etc, didnt look afterwards, but was driving on ele only and the Battery display is still showing half charge now, so I'd say it was still charging. Dial in blue etc as per normal during that last leg home 😬😬😬

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Yikes Robert, that sounds like a grim drive home 😞

When you say the mid section sheered did it split and it still hanging under there, albeit loosely? 

Initially I wonder if it had hit the ground and smashed into something on the underside?

The mid section has the 2 rear most cats and a couple of o2 sensors, are they still in place/hanging by their cables?

Depending on where the exhaust has broken, I'd say that you need to get the exhaust propped back up to prevent any further damage.

It's good to hear that the HV Battery still appears to be working normally, so lets hope that fixing the naughty exhaust resolves the issue(s).

My center section wasn't in great shape and it failed beyond repair once the rear was section was removed. Others have reported similar problems, so after 10 years these exhaust do seem prone to needing replacing.

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So, drove to garage yesterday morning, no error and driving fine for about 80% then hit a roundabout and back to cutting out /  not ready and errors returned.

Got to garage, they can weld exhaust, so will get it done tuesday. Here's hoping the errors fix themselves when it's done 🤞

The HV Battery was working fine there and back, even got up to a green charge and ran for a long time on just Battery, even after the errors reappeared and is charging and discharging as per normal, so I hope that's a good sign 🤞

Farqui, as far as I saw from quick look under (not lifted etc) there is the front section from manifold to the middle muffler (assuming it's a muffler vs cat as think there a cat on each bank vs a single one further back?), the rear side of that middle muffler has a flange which bolts to the rear section. Its inbetween that flange and the rear end of that mid muffler which has come off, so garage will weld a sleeve into the muffler and reattach the flange and done.

Re sensors and such, didnt see anything untoward, but then cant say I saw any cables or sensors at all, wasnt really looking to be fair.

Not hit anything, think it's just age, as had to have the rear y piece cut out and replaced a couple of years ago, so it's likely just starting to go in other places.

Thanks both

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So, just plugged into techstream and have 2 hybrid codes,

P0868 transmission fluid pressure low

P2797 auxiliary transmission pump driver

Do you think these could have been caused by the stalls and such? Or is it a massive coincidence that the exhaust breaks and I get transmission issues that very same day? 

Trans has always been faultless, never so much as a hiccup 🙄

Not sure what readings I'm looking for, but have taken pics and attach here in case anyone can see anything etc.

20191116_084721.jpg

20191116_084715.jpg

20191116_084546.jpg

20191116_084500.jpg

20191116_084534.jpg

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I cannot see these codes being relevant to the problems you have. It is possible you have the well documented bearing failure of the transmission pump electric motor. This is a relatively easy fix with parts costing £5.
Why would the car engine stop running in park? It maybe the car has gone into limp mode as this does happen with the oil pump problem. Have you tried clearing the codes to see if things improve? I believe the code only appears if you try to go above the gear change speed 65/70 mph or when the transmission gets to hot, and goes into limp mode, and does not self clear.
Are there any codes stored in the engine ECU?

John.

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Hi john,

The only codes in the entire car are the two above, transmission pressure and the driver. Nothing on engine etc.  

I do see in the shots above that some pressures are reading negative, is this normal?

The car stalled at roundabout way before I hit the 60mph plus switch over, couldn't have gone above 45 before issues reappeared.

I've cleared the codes and will be driving back to the garage for the exhaust fix tomorrow, so 🤞 however I expect them to return before I get there as they did last week.

If they do, I'll clear down again when home tomorrow night and hopefully as they will be cleared after the exhaust repair, that will be it. Perhaps something is getting hotter due to the exhaust blowing where it shouldn't, but I doubt it 🙄

Will check out the bearing thing, as sounds a good place to start, but having read one or two posts, they seem to be able to drive on petrol only for a while, and dont have the stalling issues I have, ie coming to a stop and ready light going out and unable to move away.

Will report back when know more, and hopefully this isn't terminal, as I do love the car 🤞

Thanks, Upex

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The auxiliary oil pump runs when the engine is off, or when additional pressure is required (the "gear shifts") - i.e when the main (engine input shaft driven) oil pump can't supply pressure. Combine that with the car running the engine at startup to warm it up to 40c (unless it's already warm) + cold weather forcing the engine to run for heat (unless it's over 65c or so - depending on heat settings) + the engine wanting to calibrate its idle after warming up "fully" (which requires almost a complete stop for several seconds - in case you're wondering why the engine sometimes runs with the heat off and the energy display showing nothing) + the engine always running above a certain speed (say, 40mph)... I guess you're getting the picture of what's going on 😉

If you leave the car in D mode, the engine won't switch off. If the limp mode for those codes keep the engine running, it should have the same effect, albeit with probably reduced "punch".

Get the exhaust fixed, examine the area around the breakage & the transmission's oil pump (and its harness) for any visible damage, proceed from there. Probably the bearings.

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Thanks lwerewolf, 

I'll do that, just wish whatever it was kept the engine running, would save me getting stuck at stops 😬

Fingers crossed the exhaust weld sorts it today. I'll post back when known 🤞

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So, exhaust sorted and back to quiet 😅 and drove back from garage without a stall, so that's promising, albeit errors were still there when picked up from this morning, so will have to clear them and see at next drive 🤞

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Afraid not, drove 20 miles ish fine, thought good but then stopped in traffic and she went unready and errors returned. Not scanned them yet, but look and behave same 🙄 

Bizarre as hybrid functioning fine, drives, discharges, charges etc all normally, just cant stay ready at a standstill 😬

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So, I'm going to try the bearing replacement, but wonder what oil and how much?

Seen atf WS mentioned, but is that the only spec? Does it need to be lexus/toyota, or will other brands do? No viscosity numbers to worry about? How much will I need to drain, do bearings and then replace the fluid? Lots of quart talk in states,  12 or 13 quarts, and good guide on gs300, is that's the same tranny and procedure?

Bearings for the pump are quoted as 

61900-2Z front bearing
608-2Z rear bearing

But does make matter? Dunlop or skf, will they be the same if number is?

presume I need a bearing puller, but does the front one come off front ways and rear one rear, or both same way? Will I know when new one in right place or should they be marked before removing old?

thanks all and sorry for the list of questions, little nervous I'll stumble when deep in it so trying to cover everything first.

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Robert.
The bearing numbers can be cross referenced between manufactures some will use different numbers. A bearing puller is not required, but may be of help "they are very small bearings". The bearings sit against shoulders on the shaft.

I would not recommend using oil other than WS because rather like the problems with AC lubricant the two electric motor generators in the transmission rely on this oil for coolant, and electrical insulation. They run directly in the oil. I believe only about 4.5 ltrs comes out to change the pump. US quarts are 10% smaller than imperial quarts "as are US Gallons".

John.

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@Upex

Not bizarre, read the above. You're in traffic, engine is fully warmed up, does its ISC learning and shuts off. Auxiliary pump doesn't work >> no pressure >> codes and unready. The codes forced the engine to run constantly, clearing them made this situation possible. If you get Battery codes, it's the same thing - it refrains from stressing it (only uses it to start the engine - no torque fill or anything), thereby preserving it as much as possible.

Transmission ATF fluid replacement (no it's not a belt-driven CVT) instructions here:

https://slideplayer.com/slide/14432904/

...it's for the ls600h but the transmission is almost the same. Realistically you might need around 5l if you drop the pan and also flush the oil cooler lines with compressed air.

Read this:

http://carlthomas66.blogspot.com/2016/03/lexus-gs450h-transmission-oil-pump.html

Related:

More recent:

Same thing over at clublexus:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-3rd-gen-2006-2011/918554-06-gs4560h-problem.html

Another clublexus thread covering this:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/hybrid-technology/853851-p2797-with-subcode-865-on-2008-gs-450h.html

The ATF-WS covers everything - viscosity, detergents, friction modifiers, anti wear additives (if any), etc. I don't think you can go wrong with Toyota's own (lexus is the same). I run Amsoil FE in mine, others are running redline in their prius, there's one over at clublexus running Ravenol CVT (yup) currently, another is running Ravenol's ATF-WS equivalent... etc, etc. Toyota's is probably the safest bet. I haven't heard of an outright transmission failure on these cars (other than the famous external oil pump bearings)

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Hi, 

P0868 894, refers to the difference between the value of the transmission revolution sensor rotational speed times the gear ratio of the 2nd stage motor speed reduction planetary gear unit and the MG2 rotational speed, exceeding a specific value continuously for a specified time at a speed of 22 mph or more.

Before touching anything on the inverter converter and any high voltage equipment, remove the HV plug from the trunk and wait 10 minutes for the capacitors to discharge. Wear insulated gloves and measure the voltage present on the equipment you are about to touch.

The problem could be at the wire harness or connectors of all relative equipment, Hybrid vehicle transmission assembly, oil pump with motor pump assembly, hybrid control ECU, Fusible Link and the oil pump relay.

Check the hybrid ECU connector. Check for corrosion, dirt and anything that makes a bad contact.

Oil pump motor controller connector.

Check hybrid transmission SL1, SL2 solenoid valves and Solenoid valve connectors

Transmission rev. sensor connector  pin 1 and ground, 11 to 15 Ohms at 20C

                                  SL1 connector pin 3  and pin 2 , 5 to 5.6 Ohms at 20C

                                  SL2         ''         ''    22  ''    '' 21,  ''  ''    ''       ''      ''   ''

In engine bay, check the fusible link of the oil pump.

Check the oil pump relay resistance values.

                 Pins 1  and 2 , 151 to 203  Ohms.

                 Pins 3 and 5, 10 KOhms or more.

                With 12v across pins 1 and 2,  resistance between pins 3 and 5 shoul be less than 1 Ohm.

Check the harness and connector between HV control ECU  and oil pump motor controller.

There are measurements to take on the connectors which I will try to leave on another post if you want to pursue the issue further.

P2797-865 , refers to the auxiliary transmission fluid pump control performance.The oil pump motor controller, controls the rotation speed of the oil pump motor [ 3 phase brushless motor ] in accordance with the rotation speed request signal sent from the hybrid control ECU. The controller also displays the oil pump motor status as a signal to the hybrid control ECU.

To diagnose what is causing this DTC involves a lot of measurements and I will try to send them to you if you have the time to go through the tests. They are measurements on the connectors on the equipment involved.

Concluding, make sure that the 12v Battery is ok and it never falls below 11volts. Make certain that the ground points are good and without resistance between the Battery negative terminal and the ground point in question.

Male sure that all connectors are clean, corrosion free and sealed from rain, moisture, dirt and dust. make sure that they fit firmly and securely. Pay particular attention to the pins of the connectors, clean them if necessary with suitable solvents for electronic electronic equipment.

Check for damaged harnesses and repair.

Kindest regards,

 

Chris.

 

 

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Cheers all, a lot of info to review and at work, so will digest and come back, but thank you so much for giving your time to help, very much appreciated 😊

Lwerewolf, I note your point on codes causing engine to run constantly, but this isn't my symptom, I'd be happy if it was as least is usuable. Hybrid runs perfectly fine, ele only, both, charge and discharge etc, just doesn't stay ready when come to stop. When restart, have to be lightening fast to get moving before it goes unready again, as engine doesn't kick it until moving etc. Not sure if it changes anything or not, but if the engine ran at a stop and allowed me to pull away and be in petrol only, I'd be far less worried 🙄

Now to order 5l of atf WS, as found and ordered bearings 🤞 would this atf work? Says WS but also TOYOTA: T-II, T-III, T-IV, WS

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F121852237241

Used their engine oil before and seemed fine.

Cheers all, you're legends 😁

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Ehh… I'm pretty sure there's a viscosity difference between T-IV and WS. If I recall correctly, ATF-WS (and other similar fluid specs) was introduced due to "environmental" concerns - primarily fuel economy and extended oil change intervals. Less viscosity = less friction, theoretically. At any rate, ATF-WS goes for 43 euros for the 4l package. I'd just get it. Not saying that Westway is bad or anything.

Read and follow Mihanicos's advice, the information is straight out of the service manual for these codes.

 

With regards to the engine running - keep the transmission in S (sport) mode (I just noticed that I wrote D mode in my first post - sorry). The engine won't automatically turn on in S mode, but it will keep it running if it does start.

Main problem - if you start the car hot, you have to do heel-and-toe or left foot braking to make the engine run immediately in order to not trigger the failsafe (throttle in park mode makes the engine "rev" somewhat, unless it's force-charging the Battery - then it ignores your throttle).

Another problem - as soon as you hit reverse or anything other than S, and the engine switches off, same thing. Easily caused by reversing. You can go into maintenance mode to get around this:

http://carspecmn.com/putting-your-toyota-prius-into-maintenance-mode-getting-the-engine-to-stay-running/

...same procedure for all Toyota/Lexus hybrids. Make sure your parking brake is engaged 🙂

At any rate, if you do use maintenance mode - I think ABS is the only safety system that will still function, and then only somewhat. No traction or stability control. No "fake" LSD (dabbing brakes on spinning wheel). Reduced power (I think it forces MG2 into high gear, not entirely sure). Very easy to spin the wheels, and you won't notice due to the CVT... and the speedo is slow to react. The warnings about inverter failure do have a merit, even though I don't personally know of any such cases... and people have been doing stupid things. In other words, don't mess around in it 🙂

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/02/motor-control-101/

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just a quick update, found a day to get under the car and what a job it turned into. 

Exhaust bracket, both outer bolts rusted and seized solid. Snapped one trying to get it off, after copious soaking in pen fluid, heat, shocks whatever I thought might free it 🙄 the other side is so corroded on the head that it wont take a socket. 

Got to the pump by bending the bracket, so have to source another now, or bend it back. 

Dumped the ATF, wondering which fill plug itll be, as none as stamped ws as I've seen on another thread. Stinking, dark, but still with red in it, thinking this isn't original oil at 166k miles, or its held up very well. Accidentally dropped a wrench and sprayed used oil all over my face, in mouth and eyes, the works. Not enjoying this spanner session 🤦‍♂️

Pump lowered, no way on earth that the pump was coming apart when on car. So went to pull it all out and the vast number of clips were a royal PITA. Took me 2hrs to get them all, what a chore.

Pump on bench, shaft not turning at all, even with pliers it was very stiff. The bolts holding it together were seized, rounded off the Phillip's heads and took an angle grinder and half ince impact driver and big lump hammer and another 2hrs to get them out, what a job 😬

The front plate was bent in places like it's been opened before, and I think the bolts should have been hex/Allen head, not posi screw domes, wonder if this is its second set of bearings? 

Opened up and both front and rear bearings totally knackered, with rear having nearly disintegrated, housing full of metal dust 🤦‍♂️

Tried to tap out the shaft lightly, wasnt moving, so called it quits until another day.

Thinking I should have perhaps considered parting out the old gal 😉

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Hi,

Thank you very much for the update and all the information regarding the problem. It is reassuring to see that the electronics of this car are very reliable and can withstand the wear and tear.

Kindest regards,

Chris.

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Thanks for the heads up Robert. This is a job I keep putting off. I have the bearing to hand. My car makes a rotating rattling noise in ready mode while stationary. The noise comes and goes depending on the position of the gear selector. I tried running the pump in Techstream at it's different speeds, and get the same noise, but no other symptoms as yet.
It may pay me to get the local garage to remove the pump, and I will service it. It will be worth the cost to save scrabbling around on the floor outside.

John.

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I wish I had, was a heck of a job and I'm dreading trying to get it back on to be fair, not much room when on back that's for sure.

I would say do sooner than later john, I think mine been dead a while, way before throwing any errors and still cant get my head round the fact it coincided with exhaust braking day, the break was miles away from the pump 🙄

Anyone know if I can put it in N and push her with no atf in her? Dont want to knackered her but could do with shifting on to the drive.

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18 minutes ago, Upex said:

I wish I had, was a heck of a job and I'm dreading trying to get it back on to be fair, not much room when on back that's for sure.

I would say do sooner than later john, I think mine been dead a while, way before throwing any errors and still cant get my head round the fact it coincided with exhaust braking day, the break was miles away from the pump 🙄

Anyone know if I can put it in N and push her with no atf in her? Dont want to knackered her but could do with shifting on to the drive.

Pressing the black button by the side of the gear selector, and selecting neutral will allow you to move the car without any problem from just pushing. Obviously do not tow the car anywhere, but pushing will be fine. Do not forget to put the car back in park after moving.

John. 

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They were philips on mine as well, I used hex screws from my blown inverter and they fit perfectly. In my case the bearings were still turning ok, turned out the ATF wasn't adjusted properly. I've got the somewhat quiet "chirp chirp" sound while the pump is running now, so I guess it's due time for a change...

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