Direction of travel

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

come over as anti cycling everything,

Goes back to tribalism post - cyclists see everyone who even dares to questions cyclist rights and responsibilities as anti-cyclist. 

As for VED - it is inherently unsustainable and unfair tax which was pushed with various excuses. Those excuses if applied more generally (be it playing devil's advocate) leads to suggestions that maybe cyclists should pay VED as well. Obviously they shouldn't, but if justification for VED would be true, then they should. And if we say they shouldn't, then at the same time we should agree that VED shouldn't exist either. 

I would not support taxing cyclist, although I would support making in mandatory for them to have at least TP insurance, have at least basic formal training and for bicycle technical requirement to be specified and maybe even inspected. This is not anti-cyclist, rather I just feel that using the roads (although not a privilege in my opinion) comes with some form of responsibility.

And I would go even beyond that - I think kids ins schools should be taught of how to use roads safely. This is actually more important than math, chemistry or physics... although understanding them probably helps to understand why car can't stop on the dime and why it is pedestrian who probably should wait. 

[Moleman]

15 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Goes back to tribalism post - cyclists see everyone who even dares to questions cyclist rights and responsibilities as anti-cyclist. 

He just does not see what he is doing and how he sounds, Completely locked into Tribalism, Two wheels good four wheels bad.  😇

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Moleman said:

He just does not see what he is doing and how he sounds, Completely locked into Tribalism, Two wheels good four wheels bad.  😇

No it’s just a different view to you, it’s. It’s Not tribalism to see things from a different perspective, cyclists can be motorists and visa versa. This dividing people into different groups, motorist or cyclist etc etc drives (rides??) me mad. I would never want cycling taxed, other people have a different view.
Malc made the original statement about taxing cyclists, so that must make me tribal towards him in your view. Absolutely not, I think I agree with most things he posts.

Why get so defensive if people have a different view on a forum there really is a lot of worse things in the world

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

Draught Pedigree. Blimey last time I had one of those was at least 35 years ago lol. Not seen it on draught for ages. For me it Old Peculiar first choice. Failing that Abbott Ale. Failing that off back home for a few Southern Comforts 🥃👍

Don't know about having a rant being a pleasure but I can kind of see that.

Ruddy good thread you've started by the way 👍. Amazing how cheese turns to chalk lol.

[doog442]

40 minutes ago, Moleman said:

He just does not see what he is doing and how he sounds, Completely locked into Tribalism, Two wheels good four wheels bad.  😇

You've found a very good comrade with Linas ...he will suit your agenda to the full bless him.  

This two wheels good four wheels bad  and tribalism nonsense is just that.  I am a motorists who cycles AND a cyclist who drives. I mean why the hell would I be a member of a Lexus forum for 15 years...yes I love a straight six / V6 and one day it will be a V8 !!. I'm also a pedestrian who drives and a pedestrian who happens to cycle.  

You however appear to be a stuck record. 

[Moleman]

42 minutes ago, Derant said:

No it’s just a different view to you, it’s. It’s Not tribalism to see things from a different perspective, cyclists can be motorists and visa versa. This dividing people into different groups, motorist or cyclist etc etc drives (rides??) me mad. I would never want cycling taxed, other people have a different view.
Malc made the original statement about taxing cyclists, so that must make me tribal towards him in your view. Absolutely not, I think I agree with most things he posts.

Why get so defensive if people have a different view on a forum there really is a lot of worse things in the world

 

 

Dear Antony, please read my posts all over the forum, I am more than willing to acknowledge a different point of view and have clearly shown that. On this subject Doog seems unable to accept any other point of view. That is just a shame and it continues just above this post, and yet again he has to get personal this time about another member. He just cannot help himself. Still everyone else provides a lively and open forum and I will continue to enjoy that. Best wishes.

[doog442]

This is getting slightly weird. Linas and I go back years Maurice and we've had a few ding dongs in the past. That said he's a long standing and respected member of the forum for those who don't have him on ignore  

Seriously he's good value and his Lexus knowledge is second to none (kind of ) even though we disagree on the attributes of a Lexus 4 pot 

Deep down we share the same values, would love to see an RC350 on these shores and despair at the move to go hybrid across the board....we also both think your car is crap but would never say it to your face, well I wouldn't 

Move on fella, its not a popularity contest. 

 

[Moleman]

9 minutes ago, doog442 said:

This is getting slightly weird. Linas and I go back years Maurice and we've had a few ding dongs in the past. That said he's a long standing and respected member of the forum for those who don't have him on ignore  

Seriously he's good value and his Lexus knowledge is second to none (kind of ) even though we disagree on the attributes of a Lexus 4 pot 

Deep down we share the same values, would love to see an RC350 on these shores and despair at the move to go hybrid across the board....we also both think your car is crap but would never say it to your face, well I wouldn't 

Move on fella, its not a popularity contest. 

 

Yawn.

[doog442]

5 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Yawn.

Nice one, lets move on.👍 

[Linas.P]

I think we all are - "cyclists", pedestrians and "motorists". However, when it comes to tribalism not every person who has a bicycle is ideological cyclist and not every person who drivers is ideological motorist.

Few guys here are quite clearly ideological cyclists and some others (including me) probably ideological motorists. Yet even objectively motorists pays ~£1500 more tax every year than other people, so it is not unjustified to have some expectations.  Further, I have never complained about VED being too much or looking for other to pay, however that is on condition that roads are in acceptable shape... and they are simply NOT. UK roads are disgusting and objectively worst in Europe. Not only that drivers are still viewed as enemies of the society and attacked on every occasion as some sort of criminal, despite contributing billions towards well being of said society. And I don't care if somebody benefits from it either, nor I said money can't be spent on anything else but roads - as long as those roads are maintained and improved to support the growing need... and again they are not, they continuously getting worse.

And how this all relates to KWH costing £4? Well that is simply reminder that having EV is not guaranteed escape from this extortion. Some early EV adopters are surprised, because they paid premium and have to live with inconvenience of EV, but they thought they did so to make it better for the society. Yet few years later they are thrown back together with "scum of society" (that is motorists according to vegetables) and treated just as poorly as any other motorists. Then they are surprised and enraged - don't be... all the taxes and discrimination was never about pollution, it has always been just rhetoric to justify taxing some more than others.   

 

[Moleman]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think we all are - "cyclists", pedestrians and "motorists". However, when it comes to tribalism not every person who has a bicycle is ideological cyclist and not every person who drivers is ideological motorist.

Few guys here are quite clearly ideological cyclists and some others (including me) probably ideological motorists. Yet even objectively motorists pays ~£1500 more tax every year than other people, so it is not unjustified to have some expectations.  Further, I have never complained about VED being too much or looking for other to pay, however that is on condition that roads are in acceptable shape... and they are simply NOT. UK roads are disgusting and objectively worst in Europe. Not only that drivers are still viewed as enemies of the society and attacked on every occasion as some sort of criminal, despite contributing billions towards well being of said society. And I don't care if somebody benefits from it either, nor I said money can't be spent on anything else but roads - as long as those roads are maintained and improved to support the growing need... and again they are not, they continuously getting worse.

And how this all relates to KWH costing £4? Well that is simply reminder that having EV is not guaranteed escape from this extortion. Some early EV adopters are surprised, because they paid premium and have to live with inconvenience of EV, but they thought they did so to make it better for the society. Yet few years later they are thrown back together with "scum of society" (that is motorists according to vegetables) and treated just as poorly as any other motorists. Then they are surprised and enraged - don't be... all the taxes and discrimination was never about pollution, it has always been just rhetoric to justify taxing some more than others.   

 

Excellent post. Thank you.

[Las Palmas]

29 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think we all are - "cyclists", pedestrians and "motorists". However, when it comes to tribalism not every person who has a bicycle is ideological cyclist and not every person who drivers is ideological motorist.

Few guys here are quite clearly ideological cyclists and some others (including me) probably ideological motorists. Yet even objectively motorists pays ~£1500 more tax every year than other people, so it is not unjustified to have some expectations.  Further, I have never complained about VED being too much or looking for other to pay, however that is on condition that roads are in acceptable shape... and they are simply NOT. UK roads are disgusting and objectively worst in Europe. Not only that drivers are still viewed as enemies of the society and attacked on every occasion as some sort of criminal, despite contributing billions towards well being of said society. And I don't care if somebody benefits from it either, nor I said money can't be spent on anything else but roads - as long as those roads are maintained and improved to support the growing need... and again they are not, they continuously getting worse.

And how this all relates to KWH costing £4? Well that is simply reminder that having EV is not guaranteed escape from this extortion. Some early EV adopters are surprised, because they paid premium and have to live with inconvenience of EV, but they thought they did so to make it better for the society. Yet few years later they are thrown back together with "scum of society" (that is motorists according to vegetables) and treated just as poorly as any other motorists. Then they are surprised and enraged - don't be... all the taxes and discrimination was never about pollution, it has always been just rhetoric to justify taxing some more than others.   

 

I am both.

When I retired, I became a dedicated bicyclist! Let my wife do the driving of the car. 10K km a year more or less. Then got skin cancer and after I had 3^rd lump removed, I stopped cycling in daylight so bike is not getting many km use now.

Biking made me stronger than when I was 30, slimmer and hard as a rock, removed the need for using pills for too much cholesterol and high blood pressure, coming from too many hours sitting in an office. Took a lot of my time, about 5 – 8 hours 4 or 5 times a week, almost like working. With a friend who happened to be retired pro cyclist. No mountain was too high on the island or impossible to get to the top of. On-road off-road all the same. Heavy downhill bike.

Always was careful when on-paved-road, as not all car drivers are skilled driving in mountains. Motor-cyclists are much more skilled turning on narrow high roads, if not they would not last long.

I have been driving rally long time ago when Delta-EVO was a new car. Not really dangerous as roads were cleared for us. Do not remember anybody talking about pollution then.

Surely not against any of the 2 ways to get to one point from another. Drive a lot more careful when it comes to seeing cyclists on the road than I did before I started getting into mountain biking.

Think we should all be taking care of each other. And that we should try to make the world a safe place for coming generations.

 About the taxing: You understand more than most.

[doog442]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And how this all relates to KWH costing £4? Well that is simply reminder that having EV is not guaranteed escape from this extortion. Some early EV adopters are surprised, because they paid premium and have to live with inconvenience of EV, but they thought they did so to make it better for the society. Yet few years later they are thrown back together with "scum of society" (that is motorists according to vegetables) and treated just as poorly as any other motorists. Then they are surprised and enraged - don't be... all the taxes and discrimination was never about pollution, it has always been just rhetoric to justify taxing some more than others.   

 

Norway. They taxed the hell out of ICE and offered EV at bargain prices and it was the panacea of EV - oh look at us.  Now they need a hole filling in their budget and its all those EV drivers who will pay for it. Clearly they can't do it on household electricity bills so prepare to bend over and be shafted. 

Expect the same to happen here. 

A vehicle with a registration plate is a Government cash cow and always has been no matter how it's powered.  The future surely must be on mileage. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

A vehicle with a registration plate is a Government cash cow and always has been no matter how it's powered.  The future surely must be on mileage. 

It is - as of this year all new cars must have what is called Intelligent Speed Assist (ISA), but incorrectly assumed to be just a "speed limiter". However, the truth is much darker - ISA comes with full tracking capabilities and can tell exactly where you car is, how many miles it driven and at what speed. 

It is just a matter of time before it will be used not only to charge people per mile, but as well to instantaneously fine drivers for going over the limit. In theory maybe that is not so bad, if not for speed limit being somewhat arbitrary thing... ohh and not to mention all the privacy concerns. 

Obviously they say that for the time being feature is not turned on, or turned on but does not share private details with police/government, but it would be naive to thing that device which is tracking 24/7 will remain the same. 

[Mr Vlad]

Intelligent Speed Assist/ Speed Limiter. Funny. I've seen just this evening a YouTube video about this subject but that guy doing the video is bang on. Yes cars from what 2025? all to have Speed limiters fitted as standard. But cars before that date won't have them retro fitted. But without them being connected to the Internet how can the driver of that car fitted with a Speed limiter, which Can be over written, be fined instantly for speeding? As for knowing where we are and how fast we're going. FFS Google has known for effin years.

Now for a rant Phil. Threads that go from chalk to cheese really pisses me off especially when know it alls put more than their 2 penneth worth in. Jeez their are a couple on this forum I'd gladly knock out no matter how big they are if ever I met them in person. Rant over. 🍻🥃

[Linas.P]

First of all, it is not 2025, it is 2022. Volvo being faithful anti-motorist Chinese owned spy tool fitted it voluntary to all cars from 2019 if I am not mistaken. It is permanently connected to internet, same like over the air updates, but the claim is that this is needed to enable "intelligent" part of speed limiter i.e. so that it know what speed limit is applicable when.

However, if something can be connected to internet one way, then it can be connected the opposite way as well. Technology is there, the questions is one when somebody decides to use it. 

Google knowing our location is different thing, as for all they know you maybe boldguy96 and that isn't linked with your car. So legally proving link between phone which was travelling at 119MPH and your car is difficult. It has been done, but it mostly been the case of people incriminating themselves or it being high profile crime. So it is possible to do, but police don't waste their money for using such techniques to prove speeding.

Here however you talking about 1:1 car ID which can be linked with your number plate and you as registered keeper. And I am sure if government wasn't top look at that database there will be nobody to stop them.

I am sure it will start in some completely unsuspicious way - like offering pay per mile VED and it will grow with that into full on tracking. Same for ISA itself - it was just one of many safety features proposed, but it was sneaked in small print and now we have it. The solution for time being is only using cars made until 2021 (I am sure I will be fine for at least 5 years), because as you mentioned at least for time being it is no required to be retrofitted. 

[Phil xxkr]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Sorry but I don't buy this. The claim that UK got into debt to defend and free the countries mentioned ... is partially true. In reality, UK was first and foremost defending itself and destroying nazis was the way to achieve this. So on this I would say 50/50%. But when it comes to rebuilding France or Germany, or Italy UK has not contributed crap. UK was isolating itself from European trade and counter productively still acted as if it is empire with whole useless Commonwealth project. If anything by 60's France and Germany was already outpacing UK in terms of growth, and by 70's European project was so much ahead that UK really wanted into it (and benefited greatly by joining). Only after joining what was at the time called European Communities, UK finally managed to match the growth and prosperity of other countries. Not to mention that of Germany was occupied and other half still had to pay reparations.

If I would point to any particular reason why UK was so poor, then I would say it was majority fault of Labour social policies, unions made farce of work and productivity was very poor. Then secondly, the Tories contribute as well, by dismantling industries and making millions of workers even poorer. All in all country was very inefficient, didn't have good long term policy, subsequent governments were destroying policy of preceding governments and the disaster capitalists benefited from such mess. The only reason we are not stinking waste swamp is that somehow somebody made good decision by joining EC and overall prosperity of the continent lifted UK out of the mess it was. 

Not quite sure whose teaching you history and economics over there but I would ask for a refund 😎

[Phil xxkr]

12 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Draught Pedigree. Blimey last time I had one of those was at least 35 years ago lol. Not seen it on draught for ages. For me it Old Peculiar first choice. Failing that Abbott Ale. Failing that off back home for a few Southern Comforts 🥃👍

Don't know about having a rant being a pleasure but I can kind of see that.

Ruddy good thread you've started by the way 👍. Amazing how cheese turns to chalk lol.

Great choice Vlad, now and again we get Abbot Reserve on draught FANTASTIC 🥳 OH 

and Buffalo Trace Kentucky Bourbon 🍻

[Malc]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

although I would support making in mandatory for them to have at least TP insurance, have at least basic formal training and for bicycle technical requirement to be specified and maybe even inspected. This is not anti-cyclist, rather I just feel that using the roads (although not a privilege in my opinion) comes with some form of responsibility.

And I would go even beyond that - I think kids ins schools should be taught of how to use roads safely.

Absolutely agree wholeheartedly 

Malc

[Malc]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

So it is possible to do, but police don't waste their money for using such techniques to prove speeding.

wow, thank heavens for that then .......  my 1932 Triumph can continue to run others ragged on the roads around Newmarket with me and my driver ( my nephew )  like Cap'n Hastings and Poirot on nice summery days 

Malc

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Not quite sure whose teaching you history and economics over there but I would ask for a refund 😎

I am sure you can prove me wrong. As well - nobody is teaching me history, I am studying it myself and form my own opinions. Otherwise there is risk to end-up learning propaganda instead of history. I understand that as British, being taught in Brittan you would like to believe British Empire was "force for good" and that it liberated Europe from nazis (which it was indeed one of key parties to do - hence 50%), but going by the same history soviets has liberated half of the Europe as well... try to asking in Eastern Europe and see what they think about that "liberation". Or maybe ask half of the world which was occupied by British Empire how they feel about that? And I am not saying UK or British are evil - I am just recognising that country did what was best for it and not associating some heroic or overly patriotic values.

Simple matter is - history changes depending on who is telling it, I take historic facts and interpret them myself to remove such biases and outright propaganda as best as I can.

[Phil xxkr]

11 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Intelligent Speed Assist/ Speed Limiter. Funny. I've seen just this evening a YouTube video about this subject but that guy doing the video is bang on. Yes cars from what 2025? all to have Speed limiters fitted as standard. But cars before that date won't have them retro fitted. But without them being connected to the Internet how can the driver of that car fitted with a Speed limiter, which Can be over written, be fined instantly for speeding? As for knowing where we are and how fast we're going. FFS Google has known for effin years.

Now for a rant Phil. Threads that go from chalk to cheese really pisses me off especially when know it alls put more than their 2 penneth worth in. Jeez their are a couple on this forum I'd gladly knock out no matter how big they are if ever I met them in person. Rant over. 🍻🥃

Crikey Vlad🤯 let me know your address and I'll send you some valium 😅. It's only a forum lad! On your earlier point I was intrigued to hear a Canadian trucker today who is on this huge protest convoy and when approaching a check point which requires him to show CV19 vax QR he offered up his QR code on his phone to be told "don't bother we already have it" 😱😱😱. How does that happen? 

 

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Or maybe ask half of the world which was occupied by British Empire how they feel about that? Simple matter is - history changes depending on who is telling it, I take historic facts and interpret them myself to remove such biases and outright propaganda as best as I can.

You might be surprised. Ask the 54 member states of the British Commonwealth why they choose to remain. They are nearly all ex colonies and comprise most of the ex British Empire. I'm not saying everything under the umbrella of the British Empire was good, it wasn't of course but having visited many they are quite proud of their historic links to the UK.  

[Phil xxkr]

57 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I am sure you can prove me wrong. As well - nobody is teaching me history, I am studying it myself and form my own opinions. Otherwise there is risk to end-up learning propaganda instead of history. I understand that as British, being taught in Brittan you would like to believe British Empire was "force for good" and that it liberated Europe from nazis (which it was indeed one of key parties to do - hence 50%), but going by the same history soviets has liberated half of the Europe as well... try to asking in Eastern Europe and see what they think about that "liberation". Or maybe ask half of the world which was occupied by British Empire how they feel about that? And I am not saying UK or British are evil - I am just recognising that country did what was best for it and not associating some heroic or overly patriotic values.

Simple matter is - history changes depending on who is telling it, I take historic facts and interpret them myself to remove such biases and outright propaganda as best as I can.

Conventionally it's the Victor's not Vanquished who write history. But we now have arrived at a point in time of revisionism where the opposite is true unfortunately. You wish to avoid propaganda but how do you judge the veracity of the material you study, how do know the authors don't have sub-agendas? For example, at it's height the British Empire controlled 24% of the world not 50%. Before the USA got involved and Barberossa started the British Empire stood alone against the might of Germany. Regarding the Empires legacy, well, where do I start? From a land mass the size of say Uganda its influence has extended to every country in the world through the use of the English language starting in the 1600's when in natural resources all we had was oak trees and a few fish. The current fashion is to denigrate the English for events in the past but when do you read /hear of the many positive effects of championing democratic concepts, the primacy of law and order etc that enabled disparate groups to come together and form the USA or modern India. I could go on but won't except to say funny how people wish to cut down the tallest poppies 😕

[Linas.P]

50 minutes ago, doog442 said:

You might be surprised. Ask the 54 member states of the British Commonwealth why they choose to remain. They are nearly all ex colonies and comprise most of the ex British Empire. I'm not saying everything under the umbrella of the British Empire was good, it wasn't of course but having visited many they are quite proud of their historic links to the UK.  

In the scales of evil I am sure British don't come close to soviets, nazis or japanese, that is not comparison I am making.

I know many ex-Spanish colonies hates them and I am sure that if you ask right questions even in ex-British colonies not everything will be so rosy. Or better - if we look at the matter objectively... slave trade, natural resource and valuable mineral exploitation - that is British doing... However, it is fair to recognise that British Empire was as well vehicle for progress, no matter if it was asked for or forced. I just don't like the picture of of British Empire and later UK as "saviour of the world", because it wasn't and it isn't.

In present time US is very similar to British Empire at it hay day, sure it brings some stability to allies, some wars they get engaged into do destroy evil, but overall US does what is best for US and what protects their geopolitical interests. Despite still overall making world a better place, it often translates into bloodshed as well. The questions sometimes is - at what cost? Or rather who is paying it?

26 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Conventionally it's the Victor's not Vanquished who write history. But we now have arrived at a point in time of revisionism where the opposite is true unfortunately. You wish to avoid propaganda but how do you judge the veracity of the material you study, how do know the authors don't have sub-agendas? For example, at it's height the British Empire controlled 24% of the world not 50%. Before the USA got involved and Barberossa started the British Empire stood alone against the might of Germany. Regarding the Empires legacy, well, where do I start? From a land mass the size of say Uganda its influence has extended to every country in the world through the use of the English language starting in the 1600's when in natural resources all we had was oak trees and a few fish. The current fashion is to denigrate the English for events in the past but when do you read /hear of the many positive effects of championing democratic concepts, the primacy of law and order etc that enabled disparate groups to come together and form the USA or modern India. I could go on but won't except to say funny how people wish to cut down the tallest poppies 😕

The WW2 and it's conclusion wasn't single day event. Entire Europe fought nazis, but eventually got overpowered. It wasn't British fighting nazis alone, this statement is huge disservice of millions Europeans who fought and died in the war (it is almost insulting). 

As well US supported UK long before joining the war and it wasn't all lend lease (which by the way was mostly free), Commonwealth supported the war (and Brit's can't take credit for it). Greek supported the war. Same damn soviets were in the mix. And all across the Europe there were countless resistance groups even after nazi occupation.

One thing you recognise for sure that the main benefactor of British Empire was ... surprise surprise - Britain. As for of the rest - it is matter of perspective... is speaking English over your mother tongue can be considered positive? I am sure native americans appreciate democracy brits brought to them... 

Look - I am not saying Brits are evil... I am just saying that assuming that everything they did was some sort of "act of kindness" is wrong. They did what worked best for them at the time - that is all. Some benefited from progress of what was at the time most technologically advanced nation, some lay in unmarked graves... It is just how it works...