The statement in the title was made by Scotlex in my thread about the hole in my boot.

It got me thinking though.  I am not normally one to complain about something I chose to buy, rather I put any annoyances to one side or find a workaround.

Whilst I'm fortunate that I've not yet experienced a flat 12V battery as so many do here, I do think that many of the criticisms of Toyota/Lexus are valid when it comes to flat batteries and what has to be done to get around the problem.  I think that the flat battery syndrome will persist in Hybrids because people are not educated about how to use a hybrid and often just don't understand how the system works.  This won't be a popular opinion and I understand why owners just want a car that works every time they enter it - of course they do, they paid a lot of money for their car.

This brings me to my point and I find myself in part agreeing with those owners who say that Lexus should do better. I find myself comparing the hybrid system I have now to the one that was in my previous Hyundai Tucson and although owners still experienced flat batteries, Hyundai had created a much easier get out system in the shape of a reset button on the dash. One still had to gain manual entry to the car, but once in, all they had to do was press the reset button followed by the start button within 15 seconds - simple !

Also, the Hyundai used a small 12V Lithium Polymer battery under the back seat next to the traction battery, so lighter than the brute in my carrent Lexus and it freed up boot space, so I was able to fit a spare wheel in the boot floor.

It seems to me that Lexus are behind the curve and are unwilling to update what they deem their tried and tested systems. I know it's not easy or cheap to upgrade and/or redesign their cars, but others can do it, why not Lexus.

This is probably a simplistic view and of course things are changing behind the scenes with our car designs that we know nothing about, but considering how long Toyota have been in the hybrid game, they really should be doing better, especially considering what they charge for their wares in this country.

This is an observation, not a rant. I like my car, although it is bloody expensive to run !!

22 hours ago, old man 2 said:

I think that the flat battery syndrome will persist in Hybrids because people are not educated about how to use a hybrid and often just don't understand how the system works.

I don't subscribe to this. Hybrids are designed to replicate normal car ownership and simulate driving a standard automatic. There is no need to understand how the system works or do anything special to drive it, or look after the battery.

Historically the only issue with the 12v battery was that because it isn't used to start the vehicle, owners didn't experience 'slow' turning over of the engine as the battery was weak - which was a good indication that something wasn't right.

 

With the latest generation of vehicles, they suffer more and that is to do with the battery not being properly charged in the pursuit of lower emissions. The manufacturers (not just Toyota/Lexus (for example Kia/Hyundai have beeb plagued with battery issues on their PHEV and BEV models)) need to sort this out - it shouldn't be on the owner.

 

Having had six Toyota/Lexus hybrids in the family, I've never had a flat battery (apart from a time where an interior light was left on overnight). But with the latest two, I do put them on charge if leaving them for a week or more as a precaution because I know the batteries aren't fully charged to start with 😞  - with the older ones I never did that.

This is my first hybrid so I have had many "school days" so far 😀

Probably thanks to the great information on this forum I have not had a flat battery so far.

The dealers could probably do more to educate the new owners.

Thanks for all the information 😀😀

 

Quote

Hybrids are designed to replicate normal car ownership and simulate driving a standard automatic. There is no need to understand how the system works or do anything special to drive it, or look after the battery.

 Far be for me to cross swords with you Colin, you obviously have a far greater knowledge of how systems work than I do, but.

Hybrids might be designed to replicate normal car ownership and driving, but in some hands they don't.  As far as driving is concerned, although I had reservations about a CVT gearbox (remember DAF cars ?), I find the driving experience very acceptable.

Ownership is a different matter though and maybe I didn't put my point across well enough.  I would assume that most owners don't have problems with flat batteries as they use their cars on a regular basis.  I'm not a heavy user and luckily I've not yet had a flat battery, either in the Lexus or the previous Hyundai, although the Hyundai did require the reset of several parameters when left standing for a while - quite a short while sometimes.

However, in almost 60 years of car ownership I've never had to leave a car engine running when washing/polishing a car, nor have I ever had to be careful of how many times I lock/unlock and enter the car when it's standing on my drive lest I deplete the 12V battery and then can't get into and start the car at a later date.  In that time I've only ever once suffered a flat battery when leaving the car unused whilst on holiday. 

These are all possibilities with a hybrid car and leading up to the first ownership of a hybrid, owners are not used to, or aware of those possibilities. Nothing in a makers brochure or sales people at a dealer tell us of the possible drawbacks of hybrid ownership.

I went into the ownership of my Hyundai hybrid blind and bought that drivetrain purely because it had 85bhp more than the standard ICE model.  I learned via a Tucson forum and then by other research online about flat batteries and how to mitigate against them.

In a way I'm fortunate in that I'm willing to take the measures required to prevent/overcome a flat battery, but most owners aren't willing to do the same and reasonably expect their new purchase to start every time they get in it and there's the rub, because as witnessed in these pages, they don't always start every time  do they.

So mainly in the case of low end users, it's call out a breakdown service, trickle charge the battery regularly or carry a jump starter.  This does not replicate the experiences most of us have had with previous, new, non hybrid cars.

If Hybrids are here to stay, then manufacturers should make them easier to live with and Lexus in this case in my limited experience are not doing that. As Lexus bill themselves as a luxury marque ( not something either of us agree with) and several owners subscribe to that billing, then Lexus should move forward more quickly and address the battery and theft problems in a bigger way !

6 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

There is no need to understand how the system works or do anything special to drive it, or look after the battery.

I completely disagree with this statement.  There is indeed a need to understand 'how the system works' - which has been more than amply supported by a good number of posts on this forum by owners who quite plainly did not understand 'how the system works'...and the issues they've encountered through not having that understanding of 'how the system works'....I am on about - of course - the forum gift that keeps on giving...the 12v battery😉  It is not quite as simple as you appear to make it out...although I will acknowledge it is very easy to get up to speed and understand 'how the system works'.....🙂 It's always very easy if you know the answer...or have had 6 Lexus/Toyota hybrids in the family, and therefore gained lots of ownership experience🙂😉

19 minutes ago, Pauly C said:

I completely disagree with this statement.

I must admit I read @ColinBarber statement as meaning that's how it should be, not how it is. Lexus do seem to have 'dropped the ball' in regard to 12v battery management in recent hybrids. 

The last time i "carried a jump starter "in my cars was 45 years ago in my student days. Much needed as the rolling scrap metal i was driving then refused to start half of the time. They did cost the equivalent of a crate of beer. 

When forking out a massive amount for the privilige of owning a brandnew car i categorically refuse to go back in time.

Toyota needs to design a car that works, always and without exception. ( the idea that the salespeople need to "educate " the clientele about the possibility of the car not starting and how to prevent this is simply bizarre and completely against the Lexus philosophy).

If it does not work it is not fit for purpose.

14 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

I must admit I read @ColinBarber statement as meaning that's how it should be, not how it is. Lexus do seem to have 'dropped the ball' in regard to 12v battery management in recent hybrids. 

Exactly. Older hybrids didn't need any knowledge of them and according to Toyota nor do the recent ones - but they don't seem to work for many. Solar charging, carrying jump starters, becoming an expert of how the system works is not the solution - if the vehicles aren't fit for purpose they should be returned to Lexus under consumer law - they might then do something about it.

Have to say the 12v battery issues low use owners are experiencing do remind me of DPF problems on low use diesels. Sold on the promise of low running costs and great MPG but no mention from the salesperson as to how the vehicle should be used to achieve that.

1 hour ago, rich1068 said:

Have to say the 12v battery issues low use owners are experiencing do remind me of DPF problems on low use diesels. Sold on the promise of low running costs and great MPG but no mention from the salesperson as to how the vehicle should be used to achieve that.

Not to mention the current crop of Adblue problems, hugely expensive to repair.

1 hour ago, rich1068 said:

Have to say the 12v battery issues low use owners are experiencing do remind me of DPF problems on low use diesels. Sold on the promise of low running costs and great MPG but no mention from the salesperson as to how the vehicle should be used to achieve that.

Exactly the scenario I had in mind too.  The Blair government persuaded the gullible public that diesel was the way to go, citing more mpg and it's cheaper than petrol.  They neglected to mention that diesel cars were more expensive than petrol versions and that as soon as they had enough people on the hook, they'd raise the price of diesel - which they did.

Similar is happening now with electric cars !

18 hours ago, Pauly C said:

I completely disagree with this statement.  There is indeed a need to understand 'how the system works' 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that, as it's less about how the hybrid system works and more about Toyota/Lexus fitting inadequate batteries and charging capabilities in some hybrid models. The same issues would occur on an ICE car if the battery/alternator was under specified.

If anyone needs to learn/understand anything, it's Toyota/Lexus, who need to understand what type of battery/charging they need to fit, so that owners can use their cars like any other, without having to go to the lengths of trickle chargers or jump starter packs.

Forunately I've never experienced any problems, even though there are periods when I use my car infrequently, but I sympathise with those who buy a new car and then have to find ways to mitigate these issues.

2 hours ago, old man 2 said:

Exactly the scenario I had in mind too.  The Blair government persuaded the gullible public that diesel was the way to go, citing more mpg and it's cheaper than petrol.  They neglected to mention that diesel cars were more expensive than petrol versions and that as soon as they had enough people on the hook, they'd raise the price of diesel - which they did.

I wasn't thinking of any political angle. More that potential buyers looked at the MPG figures of a diesel and a petrol with no real knowledge of what would happen to a modern diesel engine when all it does is pop to the local supermarket once or twice a week. Lack of research on their part but also never mentioned at the point of sale. Another example, to me at least, would be "Hey, this car comes with clever keyless entry and start" but again no mention from the salesperson that the physical key has to be buried in the garden every night in a lead lined biscuit tin or the car might not be there in the morning.

I think there should be a warning for low 12v battery, mine was about to give up the ghost and I only became aware when I had the Tracker fitted which has a battery monitoring facility.

I don't also see why the lower end models have a smaller battery fitted, I would expect the quiescent battery drain to be similar across the model range.