Rx400h V Merc Ml320tdi

[Lexusjohn]

Hi Guys, just read the thread in Diesel Car (NOV edition) will have full story next editon.

Quote:"A team of reserchers and Motoring Drivers have just returned from a 3,210 miles of coast to coast driving across America, in a RX400h (211BHP) and a Merc ML320CDI diesel (224BHP) to finaly discover with engine is more ECONOMICAL and POLUTION free.

The results are Merc recorded 31.04 MPG over the distance and the RX400h recorded 27.69MPG.

The endurance test showed that the hybrid technology is only marginaly more fuel efficent in urban traffic, where it is claimed to be most effective in reducing consumption. At 24.14MPG the diesel car returned only 0.42MPG greater fuel consuption in city driving than the hybrid RX400h.Because or stringent US emissions regulations the standard Merc 320CDI had to be fitted with diesel particulate filters, although it already meets with EuroIV regulations without them."

Interesting read yes?

Full report Dec issue.

[fergy]

So on one measure it might be better (not that a Diesel Car magazine would choose the route choice etc to make the diesel look better of course).

What about comparitive cost ? Equipment levels ? reliability ? Acceleration ?

Most people buy cars based on a number of factors and I know when I was looking Lexus did extreemly well on these counts.

Mercedes.... I've heard toooo many horror stoires from people that owned them to even consider one.. they need to get back to engineering their cars like they used to. BUT neighbour just got a CLK220CDi and it is lovelly....

[aido]

Now where's Dieter when you need him

Have to admit I saw a new CLK320 yesterday and my jaw hit the ground, lovely looking car :D

A Mercedes is on the short list for the next car as well :winky:

[sos10]

Have to admit I saw a new CLK320 yesterday and my jaw hit the ground, lovely looking car :D

To me the new MB looks like a plastic KIA. I find it extremely ugly, even worse then the new A, B and R "class".

But that's my taste.

Anyway I hope people will remember that the 400h is the first ever hybrid SUV (lets forget about that little Ford SUV, with toyota hybrid technics) and this is only the start... Diesels in that respect are pretty much end of the line, only marginal improvements will be made in the near future.

[Sipey]

A Mercedes is on the short list for the next car as well :winky:

←

A was considering a Merc as my next car Aido. I was looking at a CLK55 AMG. Here is a quote from a member on a Merc owners club when I enquired about them:

"Hi there

The prices of these depends a lot on the condition of them as a lot of them have had a hard life. I reckon between £18k-£25k would be a fair price depending on condition.

Look out for rust on the arches, boot, under the door rubbers and pretty much anywhere else you can think of! Some Mercs of that era are known to decay quite badly (I think I am one of the lucky ones no signs on mine yet!).

Mechanically all that has gone on mine has been the MAF which shows itself by a dramatic loss in performance, these are about £250 from a dealers to replace. Best thing to do would be to test drive a couple so you can get an idea on how they shoud perform.

0-60 wise they are not the quickest things off the mark but its their overtaking ability, the way they keep accelerating to the limiter (where permitted ) and the sound they make that puts a big smile on your face

Go for a test drive and I am sure you will be hooked!"

The fact they rot like bar stewards put me right off.

I have gone out for a second test drive in an Alpina today. I was originally looking at an M5 but this car is absolutely beautiful - Alpina B10 V8. As long as Mr Bank Manager is kind to me and the car doesn't get purchased by anyone else by the weekend, I will be putting a deposit on it.

[Lexusjohn]

A Mercedes is on the short list for the next car as well :winky:

←

A was considering a Merc as my next car Aido. I was looking at a CLK55 AMG. Here is a quote from a member on a Merc owners club when I enquired about them:

"Hi there

The prices of these depends a lot on the condition of them as a lot of them have had a hard life. I reckon between £18k-£25k would be a fair price depending on condition.

Look out for rust on the arches, boot, under the door rubbers and pretty much anywhere else you can think of! Some Mercs of that era are known to decay quite badly (I think I am one of the lucky ones no signs on mine yet!).

Mechanically all that has gone on mine has been the MAF which shows itself by a dramatic loss in performance, these are about £250 from a dealers to replace. Best thing to do would be to test drive a couple so you can get an idea on how they shoud perform.

0-60 wise they are not the quickest things off the mark but its their overtaking ability, the way they keep accelerating to the limiter (where permitted ) and the sound they make that puts a big smile on your face

Go for a test drive and I am sure you will be hooked!"

The fact they rot like bar stewards put me right off.

I have gone out for a second test drive in an Alpina today. I was originally looking at an M5 but this car is absolutely beautiful - Alpina B10 V8. As long as Mr Bank Manager is kind to me and the car doesn't get purchased by anyone else by the weekend, I will be putting a deposit on it.

←

I drove the CLS 500 before buying my A8TDI, I did not like the merc at all, and specking it up cost the earth.

[Parthiban]

I think this is always going to come across differently with different people. If you're just looking for fuel economy, then a diesel probably is still the way to go. However, if you're like me, and absolutlely hate diesels, then a petrol that can almost match a diesel is very appealing. I'm really not bothered that its not as economical as a diesel, I'm just glad that Lexus seem to agree with me (except with the IS which must be a cost issue )

Merc quality has been slightly off for the last few years, but I have to say its definitely much better now, the CLS we've had for a few months now, is extremely well put together :winky:

@Aido: Which merc are you considering? :)

[ColinBarber]

A 400h doesn't have 211bhp.

You cannot compare a 400h with a 3.2 diesel. The 400h isn't just about economy, if it was they would have launched the 240h or 300h.

The 400h should be compared to other 4.0l vehicles - then it does have very good mpg figures.

[aido]

@ Parthiban, would be happy with one of the E series mate, seemed a nice car :)

[Rillo]

Merc quality is definitely on the up - it had sunk so low that Merc had to do something about it. However, if you get the chance sit in a new E class and then sit in a 1994 model to see a difference. Merc are still some way off the 1994 quality and engineering levels. In addition their dealers can be awful.

In terms of looks I agree the new Mercs are very handsome. I saw a new CLK 320 CDI with body kit in dark blue and it was fabulous.

However what really got me into Lexus (I used to be a BMW man) was the cost of options. I like automatic, sunroof, sat nav, leather, parking sensors, CD changer etc and these alone will add nearly 6K to the price of a 3 series. In other words the price of a brand new Fiat panda!!!

[Alex K]

This originally came from Auto-Bild's test. Here's the press release, issued in August...

Mercedes-Benz CDI diesel engine consumes some 11 per cent less fuel in Auto Bild’s U.S. coast-to-coast comparison

Although many may think hybrid technology is the only answer to rising fuel costs, a real alternative is actually the diesel engine, as the German car magazine Auto Bild reported in its latest issue. The magazine conducted a comparative test drive from the east coast to the west coast of the USA with two new Mercedes-Benz ML 320 CDI vehicles and a Lexus RX 400h with a petrol hybrid system. The test result showed that the advanced diesel engine is far more fuel efficient than the hybrid.

In Auto Bild’s coast-to-coast marathon, the cars were driven about 3210 miles (around 5200 km), from New York to San Francisco. The results showed that while the ML 320 CDI (165 kW/224 hp) returned an average fuel consumption of 31.04 miles per gallon, the hybrid SUV (155 kW/211 hp) averaged

27.69 mpg.

The difference of 3.35 mpg (10.8 per cent) underscores the superiority of state-of-the-art diesel engines compared to hybrid drives. The endurance test also showed that hybrid technology is only marginally more fuel efficient in urban traffic, where it is most effective in reducing consumption. At 24.14 mpg, the diesel car returned only 0.42 mpg greater fuel consumption in city driving than the hybrid vehicle.

"The M-Class performed admirably under diverse conditions during the entire 5,200-kilometre trek," says editor Jörg Malzahn of Auto Bild. "I hadn’t expected such a big advantage in fuel efficiency."

Underneath the bonnet of the ML 320 CDI is an all-new six-cylinder engine with third-generation common-rail technology, which enables further improvements in fuel consumption, emissions and performance. At 510 Nm, the V6 has one of the highest torque outputs of any engine in its displacement class, and this performance begins at only 1600 rpm.

The Mercedes-Benz coast-to-coast test cars were also equipped with diesel particulate traps, helping to further reduce the M-Class’s emissions. The

320 CDI engine meets Euro IV regulations even without the trap.

[Kazi]

I do like th CLS 500, they look sweet in Black! :P

[DieterML]

Hi,

Coincidentally there's a write up of this comparison in this months Mercedes Enthusiast . Their conclusion was: (wait for it) :D :

"The point might have been to prove diesel superior to the hybrid, but it's lost in the end. Both offer a serious means to reduce America's shocking appetite for oil and that can only be a good thing."

So ultimately, as I have written before, which car you choose should be based more on your vehicular requirements and where you drive (urban/suburban/M-way etc.) than on the method of propulsion :winky: . i.e. it's 'horses for courses'.

On the matter of acceleration etc. what was again clear from the ME write up was that the ML was initially quicker ( i.e. both from 0mph and rolling 50 mph ) but the 400h soon reeled it in (once revs rose and electric motors kicked in). At top end, however, the ML pulled away again.

So as not to be too objective :D the current Brabus D3 chip (power up to 270 ish bhp) would probably give ML the same performance (at low(er) end) as 400h without significantly reducing fuel economy. So hybrid = diesel @ equal BHP (i.e. with chip).

Cheers,

Dieter

[JohnRX400h]

1 - It's still a M class and

2 - Are there not Merc forums that........

[Rob]

on the quality issue.......... i believe that all the RHD C class merc are made in south africa.......... dont think i need to explain further

[Lexusjohn]

I'm in agreement with merc "build quality" there aint none, all but gone even the germans are complaining :winky:

[DieterML]

Hi,

Nice to see such constructive comments by (some) Toyota owners at last :yack:

Cheers,

Dieter

(ML 320 CDi on order and well pleased with my choice :D )

[steeler]

my mistake, thought I had clicked on Lexus RX300/400h section!

[spwolfx]

Hi,

Coincidentally there's a write up of this comparison in this months Mercedes Enthusiast .  Their conclusion was: (wait for it) :D :

"The point might have been to prove diesel superior to the hybrid, but it's lost in the end.  Both offer a serious means to reduce America's shocking appetite  for oil and that can only be a good thing."

So ultimately, as I have written before,  which car you choose should be based more on your vehicular requirements and where you drive (urban/suburban/M-way etc.) than on the method of propulsion :winky: . i.e. it's 'horses for courses'.

On the matter of acceleration etc. what was again clear from the ME write up was that the ML was initially quicker ( i.e. both from 0mph and rolling 50 mph ) but the 400h soon reeled it in (once revs rose and electric motors kicked in).  At top end, however, the  ML pulled away again.

So as not to be too objective :D  the current Brabus D3 chip (power up to 270 ish bhp) would  probably give ML the same performance (at low(er) end) as 400h without significantly reducing fuel economy.  So hybrid = diesel @ equal BHP (i.e. with chip).

Cheers,

Dieter

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Actually, MB was NOT quicker EVER, until RX reached the top speed.

What the test actually said was that ML was quicker in the desert sand, because of the real 4x4 drive, and only quicker to start and soon RX overtook it... until it reached top speed of 190kmh, while ML went over 200kmh...

Actual times on the pavement - RX was 2sec faster 0-60 and passing times were between 1.5 and 2 sec faster. Thats huge. Thats simply another class.

I am not sure if chip would have with such differences, plus, you think chipped car wouldnt spend more fuel? How does that magic work? :-).

Only way it doesnt spend more fuel is that you dont press the pedal.

Also, it was an Autobild test, sponsored by MB. MB had an gas truck running after them with low sulphur diesel (cant get it in the US) to refuel ML.

And electric engines work the best initially, so kick in is there right from the start and it actually slows down to the end, while then petrol engine starts coming strong.

Should I even mention that when Automotor und sport tested ML and RX, RX spent 30% less fuel? :-).

When I get my RX400h, I will meet up with Dieter to compare the two, sounds good? :-).

[DieterML]

What the test actually said was that ML was quicker in the desert sand, because of the real 4x4 drive, and only quicker to start and soon RX overtook it... until it reached top speed of 190kmh, while ML went over 200kmh...

Hi SP,

This is the actual quote from the ME article:

"That's ably demonstrated when the monotony of the Interstate 80 (sand :P ) leads to some impropmptu testing on clear sections. Slowing to about 30 mph side by side in the ML and the Lexus we undertake some acceleration tests. Despite the ML's 129kg weight penalty the combination of the quick-shifting seven-speed automatic transmission and the 3-litre V6 turbo-diesel's tremendous linear punch sees it pull easily away from the Lexus. It's a similar story at 50 mph though in both cases the Lexus' initial tardiness is replaced by its ability to reel in the Mercedes once its revs rise and the electric motor is giving its all too".

I don't see much/any mention of sandy conditions in that quote , do you?

The standing start test were carried out on Bonneville salt flats (salt is NaCl, sand is SiO2) and the outcome was essentially the same (as above) quote " However it doesn't take too long for Lexus to flash past"

There is no doubt that 400h is quicker to 62 (7.6 v 8.6 sec for 400h and ML respectively) it's just the initial take up may be a tad slower .

Whilst I'm quite happy to admit the ML is not as fast overall as 400h it appears some Lexi owners can't bear the thought that an ML could outperform it in any aspect at all

Frankly I don't give a toss which is faster, as I don't think these 4 x 4's (and occasional 4 x 4 like 400h) are about outright speed (What is the point of Cayenne turbo? although I'm quite happy for people to own/drive them etc.), they're more about flexibilty and comfort etc. and my understanding is that both cars fulfil these criteria (but in different ways etc.).

Overall I feel the ME review was fair. If you don't, well that's OK with me too.

As for a 'head to head' I can't see any point. I don't have anything to prove to you. I was just responding appropriately to the thread topic. However it's obvious that your confidence needs a boost :winky:

Cheers,

Dieter

PS Was the Ml towing the gas truck at the same time?

[Lexusjohn]

:D I just luv this "bitching", keep it going :winky:

I just got back from sunny blackpool, more speed cameras per mile than cats-eyes, If you blink or chat for a min, your reward is 3 points, what the F**K is this country coming too?. If this escalates around the country it wont matter what car you drive, the speed limit is attainable by any crap motor these days

[JohnRX400h]

[fergy]

And in the top gear results just out the M-class came a great 155th out of 159...wow...just makes you want to rush out and buy an M-class....NOT !!!! Let's face it they can only get better in the new model, and that will only be seen over time.

And where did the RX300 come... 3rd overall...and 1st in class !!!

Ok....getting a wee bit smug now...

[Bartierx300]

And in the top gear results just out the M-class came a great 155th out of 159...wow...just makes you want to rush out and buy an M-class....NOT !!!! Let's face it they can only get better in the new model, and that will only be seen over time.

And where did the RX300 come... 3rd overall...and 1st in class !!!

Ok....getting a wee bit smug now...

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Dieter's :P gone a :) bit :duh: quite. RX owner and really pleased :winky:

[DieterML]

Dieter's :P gone a :) bit :duh: quite.

Hi Bart,

"I've gone a bit quite :yack: quite what

Afraid I'm gonna have to agree that Merc qualities etc. had slipped but....MB appear to have got the message and new models (including ML , S- etc.) are much better.

As for reliability, well time will tell .

Ask Kaldoc about RX300 reliability and build quality etc . He was none too pleased with his RX :tsktsk:

Don't forget that once you're at the top (as MB was and, hopefully is heading back toward) then the only way is down :winky:

Bye for now.

Cheers,

Dieter