Newbie Hybrid Questions

[nelmo]

Hi,

First post and, depending on the replies, may be the last

Some history - I currently have a Hyundai Santa Fe which I need to tow a 1600kg caravan. However, my wife uses it during the week for ferrying kids to schools/parties/activities etc. Thus, the diesel engine rarely warms up on these sub-5 mile trips and we average 24mpg, less if we don't do any longer weekend trips

I was an early adopter of the IS200 - bought one new in 1999 and it was the best car I have ever owned. If it wasn't for the kids, I'd probably still have it...so I'm considering returning to the fold with an RX hybrid (£18k budget).

My thinking is that the hybrid will be more economical for the 75% of our driving done doing school runs etc.

However, I have seen an earlier thread on here suggesting that for very short journeys (the ones we do), it's no better than anything else. Also, there's the caravan towing issue...

So my questions are:

1. On a cold winter morning, will the hybrid run on Battery only for the 3 mile stop-start trip to my kids schools (all less than 30mph)? How long/far can the Battery alone power the car for?

2. Can a hybrid tow a caravan? Does anyone else do it?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Duncan Roberts]

Hi,

First post and, depending on the replies, may be the last

Some history - I currently have a Hyundai Santa Fe which I need to tow a 1600kg caravan. However, my wife uses it during the week for ferrying kids to schools/parties/activities etc. Thus, the diesel engine rarely warms up on these sub-5 mile trips and we average 24mpg, less if we don't do any longer weekend trips

I was an early adopter of the IS200 - bought one new in 1999 and it was the best car I have ever owned. If it wasn't for the kids, I'd probably still have it...so I'm considering returning to the fold with an RX hybrid (£18k budget).

My thinking is that the hybrid will be more economical for the 75% of our driving done doing school runs etc.

However, I have seen an earlier thread on here suggesting that for very short journeys (the ones we do), it's no better than anything else. Also, there's the caravan towing issue...

So my questions are:

1. On a cold winter morning, will the hybrid run on battery only for the 3 mile stop-start trip to my kids schools (all less than 30mph)? How long/far can the battery alone power the car for?

2. Can a hybrid tow a caravan? Does anyone else do it?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Question 1 - No in probability. That is not the purpose of the hybrid Battery, it the car does no more than 10 mph at this time in a queue it might well but but beyond it supplements the engine power. In the winter there are other demands for power for which the engine will be essential and it will cut in most of the time.

Do not confuse the hybrid system with an electric car.

There are many threads on this general topic detailing experiences.

Question 2 - of course, if you search here you will find many threads on towing/tow bars.

[MandCandK]

Hi,

I've only had my RX400h for a year but can tell you that short trips in the cold weather mean running on engine only as it needs to warm up to operating temperature. I do a 2 mile trip to drop my daughter off at school and in the cold weather unless I remove my foot completely from the accelerator it uses the engine. Now it has warmed up a bit I can do about half the journey on Battery.

The longest I've had the car run on Battery for was about 4 miles although you do have to be careful and any large hills, stop-starts or other drivers that can cause the engine to kick back in. The speed you drive isn't important for when the Battery is used, it's how heavy you are with your right foot. I'm currently getting 27-33 mpg out of mine which compared to my last car is heavenly.

I have no idea about a caravan but I'm assuming it would tow better than a normal petrol car thanks to the batteries.

hope this helps and I await to be corrected if I'm wrong on anything.

[nelmo]

Do not confuse the hybrid system with an electric car.

Ahh, that's exactly what I was doing...good point...

So basically, if I change, I'm not going to improve my fuel economy (or very little) and I lose the 7-seat option BUT I am going to improve the power, car quality etc ....hmmm....tricky....

[DanD]

I concur with the previous comments.

My wife uses our car for the school run and local driving. She averages 26mpg.

You need to consider other factors before you make your decision such as insurance costs, road tax, servicing costs, reliability, dealers, etc.

To give you an idea, our RX400h is proving cheaper to run than our previoius Renault Scenic 1.6.

Can't help with the towing question.

[teejaybee]

Good advice all round, particularly from Dan D, you must not loose site of the fact that Lexus is perceived as a "Luxury" marque and as such owning a Lexus is never going to be a cheap affair. Yes lesser makes may go wrong more often therefore more visits to the garage but Lexus spares are not cheap and main dealer costs are not cheap. To be honest if you are concerned about fuel economy (amongst other things) maybe the RX400h isn't for you?

[nelmo]

Good advice all round, particularly from Dan D, you must not loose site of the fact that Lexus is perceived as a "Luxury" marque and as such owning a Lexus is never going to be a cheap affair. Yes lesser makes may go wrong more often therefore more visits to the garage but Lexus spares are not cheap and main dealer costs are not cheap. To be honest if you are concerned about fuel economy (amongst other things) maybe the RX400h isn't for you?

I got the impression that Dan was suggesting it IS cheaper to run than other makes?

I've had BMWs, Hondas, VWs, Peugots, a Lexus (IS200) and now Hyundai and I've never noticed any huge difference in servicing costs, assuming nothing goes wrong (and I seem to have been very lucky in that respect). My last Hyundai 'minor' service was about £200, the next one is bigger and I guess will be £350+ - I don't recall my BMW or Honda being any more expensive than that. Compared to petrol costs, servicing is pretty minor IMO.

The urge to go back to a Lexus is partly what I hoped would be better fuel economy for the way we use the car (ok, maybe not going to happen) but also the oomph of a 3 litre petrol engine, the gadgets (I love gadgets ), overrall quality and the dealers (the best I've ever had to deal with).

[teejaybee]

Yes Dan D did say it was cheaper to run thatn his Renault but as I said lesser makes can go wrong more often hence higher costs.

FYI I've just had the 60K major service including spark plugs plus an MOT for £550 at a main dealer.

[nelmo]

The 50k service on my previous SF (this is my second) needed a cambelt change, which was £500 alone (I didn't get it done - sold the car instead). Also, my 30k mile service on my IS200 (10 years ago - included 4 new tyres) was an eye-watering £1,100 . A quick search on Google found a post from someone complaining when he was quoted £500 for a major service on his Renault Clio!!

My point is, servicing costs are diabolical no matter what car you have and I have never bothered taking it into account.

I'm considering doing what I do with my motorbike - change the oil and filters myself and only take the car to a dealer if it stops working. I'll just take the hit on re-sale (I had to drop the price of my old SF just £200 because of the missing SH).

Just done some boring maths (slow work day) - the difference in annual fuel costs between a diesel at 24mpg and petrol car at 26mpg (just 2mpg different) is £350 (assuming 10k miles and 8p difference in price between petrol and diesel).

[luckyduck]

Hi Newbie

I bought my RX 400h specifically to meet the demands of towing my caravan - Bailey Valencia, which it is a dream to do. Tows immaculately, and we average 18 to 20 mpg with the 'van on the back. Around town mpg drops, and very short trips it only averages 25>27 mpg - but on trips over 10 miles we easily get up to 31. Longer trips mpg can be up to 35. It does not do a 3 mile trip on electric, unless it is crawling in traffic. Hope this helps. I looked at a Santa Fe, and the RX one hands down.

[vadre]

I tow a 1400kg caravan with my 400h and it is both very secure and a powerful towcar. Fuel consumption towing is around 20 - 22mpg.

It will pull the van at low speed on batteries alone which gets plenty of surprised looks from other caravanners as you glide silently around the site. Take care not to catch some unaware though.

A word of warning though. If you get caught out on a muddy pitch with a bit of a slope, you may struggle to pull your van out as the hybrid system will simply not allow the drivetrain to spin the wheels fast enough to drag the outfit out. Not something you should be doing anyway.

In short, the 400h is a superb luxury vehicle which makes an excellent all round towcar, If you are, or have been a Lexus man, why settle for anything less.

[DanD]

One thing I would add in favour of running a RX400h is that its reliability makes budgeting a lot easier as you are less likely to be hit by unexpected bills. My experience with my two Renaults is that I always kept my fingers crossed that I would have enough time to save enough money for the next breakdown. I certainly got my money's worth from the recovery company!

And both were average mileage cars, regularly maintained at Renault dealers, etc. etc.

Another thing you may want to consider if you are buying from a dealer, is a service plan. This will provide you with fixed service costs over an agreed period and translate into an interest free, inflation proof deal that is meant to save you around 15% in maintenance over the plan duration.

[nelmo]

I've also been looking at the GS450h (sorry - I prefer saloons but the wife prefers the RX).

I put a post on that forum but it seems no-one on there tows with a 450h - any idea why that might be? Is the GS in some way mechanically different to the RX meaning towing with it isn't recommended?

The GS is a bit lighter but still a good match for my van and it has more power than the RX. An old post states that Lexus wanted £1,300 for a towbar for the 450h - someone suggested the cost is because an extra oil cooler has to be added but surely that's unlikely in this day and age?

EDIT: Hmm, the Witter website doesn't show any towbars available for a GS and the official Lexus accessories catalogue states the towing limit is reduced to 1500kg for the 450h - bugger

[teejaybee]

Absolutely no expert on towing......personally I would never buy a vehicle that had a tow bar or had had a tow bar but that's my personal preference! Anyway when I was picking up my RX400h from the main dealer as I was waiting a lady came in with her RX400h, she was pasing through Bristol and was having trouble with her tow bar electrics. The tow bar had only been fitted a day before by a very reputable firm she told me. The service manager (I overheard) told her that 9 times out of 10 people that have non-Lexus tow bars encounter trouble. Now this could be "sales speak" but it's something to consider? Check out very carefully what sort of warranty you get for non-lexus bars. Sometimes it's a false economy trying to save money? Good luck

[philthy]

I'm in the market for an SUV and after much deliberation I didn't go for an RX. The hybrid system on the RX is good in that Lexus give an excellent warranty on the aux batteries, but that's about it. I'm an infrequent user so I would inevitably suffer with the dreaded flat aux batteries problem. To spec an RX up to the same level as the car I'm buying pushes the costs up significantly too. Lexus dealers aren't everywhere like some of the other top marque manufacturers so if I'm not happy with the level of service with my local dealer, I'm pushed as to how far I'm prepared to travel just to get the car serviced.

[Duncan Roberts]

I'm in the market for an SUV and after much deliberation I didn't go for an RX. The hybrid system on the RX is good in that Lexus give an excellent warranty on the aux batteries, but that's about it. I'm an infrequent user so I would inevitably suffer with the dreaded flat aux batteries problem. To spec an RX up to the same level as the car I'm buying pushes the costs up significantly too. Lexus dealers aren't everywhere like some of the other top marque manufacturers so if I'm not happy with the level of service with my local dealer, I'm pushed as to how far I'm prepared to travel just to get the car serviced.

The extended warranty is on the hybrid Battery used for driving the car not the auxiliary Battery. That is the small one which starts the car and powers everything else. That said failures are not that common and unless you are parking the car for 2/3 weeks I would not be concerned.

[philthy]

Ok but we know which Battery I meant. I would be leaving the car standing for long periods and plenty of folks reckon it only has to be a week for the problem to occur. Don't get me wrong, it's a good car, but the problem with the Battery is too big a risk for me to take and when coupled with my other reasons, it's not the car for me.

[Duncan Roberts]

Ok but we know which battery I meant. I would be leaving the car standing for long periods and plenty of folks reckon it only has to be a week for the problem to occur. Don't get me wrong, it's a good car, but the problem with the battery is too big a risk for me to take and when coupled with my other reasons, it's not the car for me.

A week is far shorter than I have seen -2/3 yes but just seven days no. Certainy not my experience either.

[teejaybee]

I replaced my Battery with a Bosch one from Europarts following a recommendation on here, have left the car for almost 3 weeks with no problems.

[ColinBarber]

Ok but we know which battery I meant. I would be leaving the car standing for long periods and plenty of folks reckon it only has to be a week for the problem to occur. Don't get me wrong, it's a good car, but the problem with the battery is too big a risk for me to take and when coupled with my other reasons, it's not the car for me.

A week is far shorter than I have seen -2/3 yes but just seven days no. Certainy not my experience either.

Once the original Battery is 7+ years old then you will be lucky to be able to start the vehicle after being left for a week. With a new Battery you can sometimes get away with 2 weeks. Get the Bosch replacement and 3 weeks becomes a reality, just, due to it having a larger capacity than the OEM one.

[philthy]

I leave my vehicle for long periods and I don't see why anyone should have to go and buy a replacement Battery for a new car. Lexus are aware of this problem and should sort it out if we're being brutally honest about it. As it is I bought a new R Line VW Toureg with a 3.0 V6 diesel engine and Blue motion technology.

[teejaybee]

I think the Battery problem occurs with older cars = older batteries, most cars will need to replace their Battery after 5+ years anyway. The VW is a nice car but it isn't a Lexus! They are two very different vehicles, enjoy.

[philthy]

No, the problem also affects new cars according to the dealer I spoke with.

I've owned a Lexus previously and they have no superior quality over other established marques. If anyone honestly believes they have then they are puddled. Yes theyre above Ford, Nissan, Renault etc, but Volvo, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagon? Not a chance. The warranty with the Lexus hybrid batteries is better than VWs for their hybrid Toureg, but I gave up on the idea of a hybrid altogether. As it is I got a car with very high spec and performance for half the price of what a new RX450h would've cost me with less spec and performance.

[teejaybee]

Hey, I never claimed that Lexus was a superior marque, what I said was that a Lexus is a Lexus and a VW isn't.

I'm pretty certain I'm not "puddled"...just voicing an opinion which surely is the purpose of this forum? As I said enjoy your purchase.

[philthy]

Ahh, I thought you were trying to say it isn't as good as a Lexus. I apologise. Should have remembered this is the RX lounge and not the riff-raff in the IS one.