Kilroy

[DaveEllen]

Any thoughts ?

[tony_hetherington]

We are falling under the imam's spell

By Mark Steyn

(Filed: 13/01/2004)

Let me see if I understand the BBC Rules of Engagement correctly: if you're Robert Kilroy-Silk and you make some robust statements about the Arab penchant for suicide bombing, amputations, repression of women and a generally celebratory attitude to September 11 – none of which is factually in dispute – the BBC will yank you off the air and the Commission for Racial Equality will file a complaint to the police which could result in your serving seven years in gaol. Message: this behaviour is unacceptable in multicultural Britain.

But, if you're Tom Paulin and you incite murder, in a part of the world where folks need little incitement to murder, as part of a non-factual emotive rant about how "Brooklyn-born" Jewish settlers on the West Bank "should be shot dead" because "they are Nazis" and "I feel nothing but hatred for them", the BBC will keep you on the air, kibitzing (as the Zionists would say) with the crème de la crème of London's cultural arbiters each week. Message: this behaviour is completely acceptable.

So, while the BBC is "investigating" Kilroy, its only statement on Mr Paulin was an oblique but curiously worded allusion to the non-controversy on the Corporation website: "His polemical, knockabout style has ruffled feathers in the US, where the Jewish question is notoriously sensitive." "The Jewish question"? "Notoriously sensitive"? Is this really how they talk at the BBC?

Mr Paulin's style is only metaphorically knockabout. But, a few days after his remarks were published in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram, some doughty Palestinian "activists" rose to his challenge and knocked about some settlers more literally, murdering among others five-year-old Danielle Shefi. In a touch of symbolism the critic in Mr Paulin might have found a wee bit obvious, they left her Mickey Mouse sheets soaked in blood.

Evidently Kilroy's "polemical, knockabout style" is far more problematic. For what it's worth, I accept the BBC's right to axe his show. I haven't seen it in a decade and I thought they should have axed it then. I myself got fired by the BBC a while back and, although I had a couple of rough years sleeping in a rotting boxcar at the back of the freight yards, I crawled my way back to semi-insolvency. There's no doubt in my mind that, when the CRE, the BBC, the Metropolitan Police and the Muslim Council of Britain are through making an example of him, he'll still be able to find gainful employment, if not in TV then certainly in casual construction work or seasonal fruit-picking.

But it's not really about Kilroy or Paulin or Jews, or the Saudis beheading men for (alleged) homosexuality, or the inability of the "moderate" Jordanian parliament to ban honour killing, or the fact that (as Jonathan Kay of Canada's National Post memorably put it) if Robert Mugabe walked into an Arab League summit he'd be the most democratically legitimate leader in the room. It's not about any of that: it's about the future of your "multicultural" society.

One reason why the Arab world is in the state it's in is because one cannot raise certain subjects without it impacting severely on one's wellbeing. And if you can't discuss issues, they don't exist. According to Ibrahim Nawar of Arab Press Freedom Watch, in the last two years seven Saudi editors have been fired for criticising government policies. To fire a British talk-show host for criticising Saudi policies is surely over-reaching even for the notoriously super-sensitive Muslim lobby.

But apparently not. "What Robert could do," suggested the CRE's Trevor Phillips helpfully, "is issue a proper apology, not for the fact that people were offended, but for saying this stuff in the first place. Secondly he could learn something about Muslims and Arabs – they gave us maths and medicine – and thirdly he could use some of his vast earnings to support a Muslim charity. Then I would say he has been properly contrite."

Extravagant public contrition. Re-education camp. "Voluntary" surrender of assets. It's not unknown for officials at government agencies to lean on troublemaking citizens in this way, but not usually in functioning democracies.

When Catholic groups complain about things like Terrence McNally's Broadway play Corpus Christi (in which a gay Jesus enjoys anal s*x with Judas), the arts crowd says a healthy society has to have "artists" with the "courage" to "explore" "transgressive" "ideas", etc. But, when Cincinnati Muslims complained about the local theatre's new play about a Palestinian suicide bomber, the production was immediately cancelled: the courageous transgressive arts guys folded like a Bedouin tent. The play was almost laughably pro-Palestinian, but that wasn't the point: the Muslim community leaders didn't care whether the play was pro- or anti-Islam: for them, Islam was beyond discussion. End of subject. And so it was.

Fifteen years ago, when the fatwa against Salman Rushdie was declared and both his defenders and detractors managed to miss what the business was really about, the Times's Clifford Longley nailed it very well. Surveying the threats from British Muslim groups, he wrote that certain Muslim beliefs "are not compatible with a plural society: Islam does not know how to exist as a minority culture. For it is not just a set of private individual principles and beliefs. Islam is a social creed above all, a radically different way of organising society as a whole."

Since then, societal organisation-wise, things seem to be going Islam's way swimmingly - literally in the case of the French municipal pool which bowed to Muslim requests to institute single-s*x bathing, but also in more important ways. Thus, I see the French interior minister flew to Egypt to seek the blessing for his new religious legislation of the big-time imam at the al-Azhar theological institute. Rather odd, don't you think? After all, Egypt isn't in the French interior. But, if Egypt doesn't fall within the interior minister's jurisdiction, France apparently falls within the imam's.

And so, when free speech, artistic expression, feminism and other totems of western pluralism clash directly with the Islamic lobby, Islam more often than not wins – and all the noisy types who run around crying "Censorship!" if a Texas radio station refuses to play the Bush-bashing Dixie Chicks suddenly fall silent. I don't know about you, but this "multicultural Britain" business is beginning to feel like an interim phase.

Quite a good summary I thought :) :)

[tdiplc]

I don't personally think he said anything that was incorrect, but he was naive thinking he can say stuff like that is a public domain and expect for there not to be an repurcussions.

Although Arab countries (and every other Muslim country I can think of at the moment), do have appalling human rights issues and are completely corrupt, the TV company had no other choice but to take action otherise they would be perceived as supporting racism. I think the situation may be more of an issue for the lefties and PC advocates rather than the majority of the populace, who are more than capable of speaking their minds.

I wonder whether he would have dared say anything similar about Jews (who are not without blame) who control most of the media and one of whom will more than likely be our next Prime Minister.

[DaveEllen]

My view is if he'd have kept regimes in place he'd have been OK.

The other point is that I'd not have know if the fuss had not been made.......how many people read the ariticle prior to the furore ? I mean read not bought the papers 10,000 ?

[tdiplc]

Quality post Tony.

Mr Steyn is clearly a beacon of sanity in a sea of BS, weakness, self interest and hatred.

[Zee007]

Makes me laugh. Being a British Muslim (born and bred here), I have learnt to balance my East/west perspective on life. I like it here and in America, and respect the laws and religons of the country.

But I also make an every effort to UNDERSTAND them. Having been in Washington on 9/11, and being treated like a terrorist on several occasions, I can see the frustration from ethnic minorities.

But re: Kilroy. You know, he's not a bad guy. I saw his interview with Trevor McDonald - and you know what, I think he chose his words carefully. We all know there are suicide bombers etc etc - but let's all try and do one thing eh.....

Don't generalise Muslims. There are over 70 different tyoes of Muslim in the world, and when we are all dumped into the same pot by people who aren;t prepared to learn about cultures and religins, it annoys me.

Fact: The majority of muslims believe Suicide and Murder are the two biggest sins in the religon (and it is doucmented in the Quran).....

I think that says alot about these "so-called" muslim terrorists - don't you?

[Fargo]

i would say stupidly outspoken, he was stupid to say that "what have arabs ever done for civillisation" well err quiet lot actualy,

i think Kilroy was stupid to generalize arabs and muslims together, to me it sounded like an ignorent mans comments.

however in his defence i would say that it seems the case that you cannot utter a single word against muslims or arab nations without the respective partys proclaiming racism or a hate campaign. after all in this country we have a thing called free speech where we even let that hook handed muslim preach hate against british citizens.

[DaveEllen]

after all in this country we have a thing called free speech where we even let that hook handed muslim preach hate against british citizens.

That hits the nail on the head.............we even let him claim shed loads of money from the state

[DaveEllen]

I also wonder what he said to the secretary who sent the wrong file off ! :tsktsk:

[Fidgits]

I think we need to look at this from the other angle.

Okay, what Silk said was out-of-line, but if you have ever read these 'opinion columns' in newspapers, they usually are, and tend to offend someone..

(by the way, i am not condoning racism, I personally do not think i am racist. I actually enjoy finding out about other religons, and find it very interesting, and try and understand them better, (e.g. ramadan). Personally at the moment, i am most swayed by Buddism, but this is getting off topic.)

What i wanted to say was, i think the BBC had no choice.

Look at recent history, Angus Deaton, that DJ etc...

Because its paid for by 'us' the public, they are under much greater scruitany than other TV stations.

The BBC was put in a position they could not ignore, if they allowed him to continue, then they would be branded racist (by association), but if they sacked him, then they would be 'stopping free speech'.

At the end of the day, I believe the BBC did the only thing they could.

And being a daytime talk show host on the BBC, i think Silk should've known better!

[Zee007]

after all in this country we have a thing called free speech where we even let that hook handed muslim preach hate against british citizens.

agreed Paul - except for one thing - he called himself a Muslim...... I very much doubt must real Muslims don;t see it that way......

Its trying to see the woods for the trees.....

[danny]

Thought that struck me - this is the second time the article has been published - does that mean that the first time it was well received by the war fever fueled audience? (it was first published shortly after 9/11)

[Fargo]

after all in this country we have a thing called free speech where we even let that hook handed muslim preach hate against british citizens.

agreed Paul - except for one thing - he called himself a Muslim...... I very much doubt must real Muslims don;t see it that way......

Its trying to see the woods for the trees.....

oh I See Zee, Tell me briefly what typs of muslims are there out there, you mentioned some 70 differing types, obviously dont list them all, but what differs between say yourself, the suicide bombing type (apart from semtex) and the Mr Hooks of the world..

[tdiplc]

agreed Paul - except for one thing - he called himself a Muslim...... I very much doubt must real Muslims don;t see it that way......

Its trying to see the woods for the trees.....

I wouldn't be surprised if all 70 kinds of Muslims think that they are the only true Muslims - and that the rest are Infidels.

I personally don't care what colour a mans face is - it is how he conducts himself that matters.

How is a simple man like myself supposed to se the wood for the trees?

[whitie]

I think generalising Muslims and Muslim countries is a bit narrow-minded in today’s world. Does that mean that as now and for many years there have been Muslims in the UK, make itself a Muslim Country? Or are we trying to say that we’ve never welcomed and fully accepted “foreigners” in the UK?

Did Muslims in question make the weapons they used? did they sell them? I bet not.

A lot of this I fell comes from the media. I mean who would want to watch the news, with headlines like “Muslims found helping Woman across street”. I myself have Greek and Irish blood, so does this mean I’m a Sweaty Kebab man who likes to plant bombs (no comments!)

[javadude]

he called himself a Muslim.....

As Muslim means "one who submits to G.o.d" I guess that make me one too as a born-again Christian. :)

[Fargo]

christianity,, thats another religion that has many gueses..

[ifraz]

"We owe Arabs nothing" "Apart from oil - which was discovered, is produced and is paid for by the west - what do they contribute?"

"Can you think of anything? Anything really useful? Anything really valuable? Something we really need, could not do without? No, nor can I."

These are just some of the quotes taken from Kilroy's statement. I think anyone sensible reading this would come to the conclusion that regardless of whether these comments were true or not, it's the way they were worded is what causes the offence. Kilroy expressed his opinions in a very extreme way.

I ask this one simple question, why did Kilroy feel that he had to come out and say all of this? What was the purpose of his statement? I don't believe the fact that this was republished in error, this just doesn't make any sense to me. Something this important cannot be published 'in error'.

Would you all agree that these kinds of comments (at this time) were not necessary and can incite some individuals to act against someone who they think is an Arab. I think so!

Don't generalise Muslims. There are over 70 different tyoes of Muslim in the world, and when we are all dumped into the same pot by people who aren;t prepared to learn about cultures and religins, it annoys me.

Fact: The majority of muslims believe Suicide and Murder are the two biggest sins in the religon (and it is doucmented in the Quran).....

I think that says alot about these "so-called" muslim terrorists - don't you?

Totally agree with these comments by Zee

These are my personal feelings on this topic and are not written to cause offence to anyone.

[Evista]

"Is Kilroy racist or outspoken?"..........

Well he has not demonstrated anything to suggest he is racist. Outspoken - yes, but this doesnt mean he is wrong. He is well entitled to his opinion and has freedom of speech. I have not examined everything that he has said, but from the Mcdonald interview the other night, I thought fair play to you....

With that said, being a politician and TV presenter, he should be careful what he says.

What P155ES me off is how he has been victimised by the media and it has all been blown out of proportion. The only reason it never escalated before is because of the media. I am also sick of the BBC who have just over reacted to protect their own precious reputation globally.

Kilroy should take his show elsewhere and stuff the bbc

[djanderso]

Kilroys comments were incredibly stupid. I cannot believe that someone would be stupid enough to say these things especially in today's world. I think Zee sums it up pretty well. Whether someone is muslim, christian, black or white, I don't care - racism is unacceptable in the 21st century.

I'm not religious myself, but have the view that if someone takes comfort from their beliefs then cool. Every faith has good and bad and unfortunetely people get labelled and treated unfairly.

Back to Kilroy - I'm surprised an educated man would come out with that rubbish - It's something you would expect Prince Philip to say.

[Evista]

I ask this one simple question, why did Kilroy feel that he had to come out and say all of this? What was the purpose of his statement? I don't believe the fact that this was republished in error, this just doesn't make any sense to me. Something this important cannot be published 'in error'.

Would you all agree that these kinds of comments (at this time) were not necessary and can incite some individuals to act against someone who they think is an Arab. I think so!

I am not condoning what he said or the way in shich he presented it, but have you ever seen his TV show, he is very direct, up front and to the point. Thats his style and unfortunately on such a sensitive topic he should have been a tad more diplomatic

[Zee007]

after all in this country we have a thing called free speech where we even let that hook handed muslim preach hate against british citizens.

agreed Paul - except for one thing - he called himself a Muslim...... I very much doubt must real Muslims don;t see it that way......

Its trying to see the woods for the trees.....

oh I See Zee, Tell me briefly what typs of muslims are there out there, you mentioned some 70 differing types, obviously dont list them all, but what differs between say yourself, the suicide bombing type (apart from semtex) and the Mr Hooks of the world..

OK - without boring you too much - LOL!

Once upon a time - there was ONE kind of Muslim. Period. As time evolved, leaders were brought to the fore-front as Prophets or Imams who had followers. These followers felt they were "better" than the prophet, or Imam, thus creating a different "sect" of Islam.

So - in todays world, we have 76 differnt types of Muslims. To name bu a few Shia, Sunni, Momeen, etc. These can be sub-divided too.

Now - What differs particularly with the suicide bomber type is this - they formed there own form of "Islam" very recently. As time has evolved, Muslims have begun to inturpt "Jehad" (Holy War) in different forms. Holy War - as in the Quran, is defined as fighting for your religon IF your religon is under threat of extinction.

Is Islam going to be wiped out? I don't think so.... and nor do the vast majority of "real" Muslims in the world.... That's why I don't walk round with a pack of TNT strapped to my ankles....

[Zee007]

agreed Paul - except for one thing - he called himself a Muslim...... I very much doubt must real Muslims don;t see it that way......

Its trying to see the woods for the trees.....

I wouldn't be surprised if all 70 kinds of Muslims think that they are the only true Muslims - and that the rest are Infidels.

I personally don't care what colour a mans face is - it is how he conducts himself that matters.

How is a simple man like myself supposed to se the wood for the trees?

Correct. I'm sure all Muslims do. I have many a debate with friends on this matter (as I'm still learning too about other religons!). But when facts are stated in the Queran (as quoted above) and *** says Suicide and Murder are rather large sins - I think the Muslims who choose to ignore/mis-inturprupt this are only kidding themselves as "real" muslims...

And Mark - Simple men can read up on fellow humans and their cultures/religons in recognised books and not just take newspapers, propaganda and television celebraties words as gospel.... :)

[tdiplc]

And Mark - Simple men can read up on fellow humans and their cultures/religons in recognised books and not just take newspapers, propaganda and television celebraties words as gospel.... :)

Thanks for that Zee :) Did I tell you that my middle name is "Synical" ;) - you won't see believing anything I read in a newspaper or see on telly.

The reason I tend to shy away from religiously flavoured books is that they tend to be biased towards one perspective, and religion generally tends to rely on ancient hear say which is impossible to verify.

I'm just interested in the human issues.

[Bazza]

The reason I tend to shy away from religiously flavoured books is that they tend to be biased towards one perspective, and religion generally tends to rely on ancient hear say which is impossible to verify.

I'm just interested in the human issues.

then talk to the people concerned

most are freindly and will explain what their religion is all about

as zee has exampled

the more we know the more we can understand

the more we understand the easier things will become

goes for most things in life

dob