Fuel panic!

[Bluemarlin]

8 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

These running costs need to be broken down a bit - if you are leasing out a vehicle it probably will work but for other people there are no savings to be had
Take someone with a IS250, perfectly good car in its own right and they want an EV, it will cost more than the IS250 so already they are down money and electricity is going up also and EVs cars need tyres – its not like they have zero annual costs.

Governments have forced people’s hands on this matter no matter which way you look at it – with combustion engine cars having such little global contribution to greenhouse gases I don’t feel why I should feel the burden to buy EVs, particularly when they are not that good for the environment in the first place which is ridiculing the entire matter

I agree, and even said that people often don't calculate the overal costs accurately. In some cases it's simply the perception of lower costs that's the trigger, and in others it might be a desire to get away from expensive petrol costs. Either way, there are plenty of people who perceive benefits from switching from ICE to EV.

Of course governments have forced people's hands, that's what governments do, with many things. They make decisions about the future and then put plans in place to achieve those goals. It's pretty much their job description. Sometimes it seems that there's no pleasing people. For decades people complained about governments, car manufacturers and the oil industry holding back innovation regarding electric cars, and the cost and efficiency benefits they bring. Now that governments are fully behind that technology they complain about that. Frankly I don't know who'd want to be in goverment, as it seems you can never win, and will  always be accused of being up to something.

[toffee_pie]

3 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

A salary sacrifice scheme is the best way to get a new EV if you can. No income tax (not just on the car but insurance and servicing etc), only 2% BIK and whilst there is no upside if used prices remain high, there is no downside if prices fall below predictions because the technology is moving fast.

As mentioned it would cost me in excess of £12k to get a Tesla for 2 years or £8k for a Peugeot e208, hand back the keys in both cases as with any purchase scheme, could I do it? yes, does it make sense? no - discussed at work actually in the morning and the other folk were of the same opinion

What exactly are you doing for 2 years - feeling good about driving a EV because of its emissions and environmental properties? give me a Jaguar XKR any day of the week, I can keep it after two years too and it probably will have increased in value to boot

[Bluemarlin]

2 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

What exactly are you doing for 2 years - feeling good about driving a EV because of its emissions and environmental properties? give me a Jaguar XKR any day of the week, I can keep it after two years too and it probably will have increased in value to boot

I'm not sure you're hearing people. Few, if any, do it to feel good about the environment. Funnily enough I replaced my Jaguar XK8 for a hybrid SUV, and none of my decision making was based on wanting to feel good about the environment.  It was simply a better choice for my needs, more comfortable to drive, far more reliable, and significantly cheaper to run.

Could I have justified the cost 10 years ago? Probably not. And in 10 years time, when there are plenty of 10-15 year old EV's on the market, then the financial decision will be even easier for people. Most drivers don't really care about emissions unless it affects them with VED and  ULEZ type costs. Most will buy because the maintenance and running costs are lower, and when new and used cars become more affordable, even more will switch.

[toffee_pie]

3 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I'm not sure you're hearing people. Few, if any, do it to feel good about the environment. Funnily enough I replaced my Jaguar XK8 for a hybrid SUV, and none of my decision making was based on wanting to feel good about the environment.  It was simply a better choice for my needs, more comfortable to drive, far more reliable, and significantly cheaper to run.

Could I have justified the cost 10 years ago? Probably not. And in 10 years time, when there are plenty of 10-15 year old EV's on the market, then the financial decision will be even easier for people. Most drivers don't really care about emissions unless it affects them with VED and  ULEZ type costs. Most will buy because the maintenance and running costs are lower, and when new and used cars become more affordable, even more will switch.

Its all about the environment whatever ones opinion is remember that is why there is a drive to electrification in the first place

Remember the london ULEZ zone? surprise surprise they are appearing in more and more cities -- gradually forcing people to get electric cars - more bike lanes also. Its called totaliarian control by governments

I wouldnt get a 15 year old EV, its not a Subaru - that EV wont be in a good state after 15 years, have you tried running a 15 year old laptop or phone? The days of DIY repairs on cars are over with EVs, they will be basically like laptops and have new motherboards and daughterboards put on by 'technicians' when they go wrong or to update - or else they will be binned

[Bluemarlin]

Yes, the environment might be government's motivation. but it isn't the primary driver behind consumer's purchasing decisions, which is what you appeared to be claiming.

ULEZ zones are simply a revenue generator, and so ultimately it's either those, higher council taxes, or higher income taxes. Best way to beat them is to get a compliant car, which includes the majority of petrol cars. It may be ham fisted,  or even a little dishonest in presentation, but it's hardly totalitarian.

As it happens I have two 15 year old PC's. Mini ones that cost about £60 at the time, which are at least 10 years old, possibly 15. One runs my media centre and the other is my main work pc, and both do their jobs adequately. There are plenty of 10-15 year old hybrids on the road, which have similar tech to EV's, and they don't seem any more unreliable or costly to run than simlarly aged ICE cars. Equally, ICE cars are littered with tech now that the average person can't fix themselves, which are equally prone to failure and are expensive to repair or replace.

If people based their decisions on the unknown costs of any failures in new and emerging technology, then we'd still be driving horses and carts.

[toffee_pie]

9 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

ULEZ zones are simply a revenue generator

The cynic would say a driver to accelerate the decommisnioning of combustion cars to facilitate the roll out of the EVs they are craving so much

[toffee_pie]

9 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

ULEZ zones are simply a revenue generator

The cynic would say a driver to accelerate the decommisnioning of combustion cars to facilitate the roll out of the EVs they are craving so much - gradually drowing out people until they have no option left but get a EV - on bank finance

12 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

If people based their decisions on the unknown costs of any failures in new and emerging technology, then we'd still be driving horses and carts.

Well sure but you dont seem to grasp that combustion engines around since the 1800s are getting taken off the road has it not alarmed you in how quickly and decisively governments done this without any input from anyone? 

A modern petrol car have very low g/km of emissions - comapred to a EV with its solid state components and batteries - yet these cars are getting phased out

As for the Technology, speak to anyone who makes these cars ask anyone who works for JLR, Audi, Merceds or BMW and they will tell you the level of integration with the .NET and number of BCUs and level of digital control and such is off the scale, and its only 2022 - if you think the lay person can repair a car in 2030 you really need to look into the mirror - cars will be long past the stage where humans actually drove them they will all be automated

I can only see 3 winners for EVs 

1. Banks

2. Auto manufacturwers - the DIY days are gone and they will have total control of the car from start to finish - Tesla do not disclose IP to anyone, they wont be the last

3. Governments

 

[dutchie01]

it is called totalitarian control by governments.

Oh Toffee please dont say that you have no idea. The sheer fact you can write this down without a knock on the door at midnight proves otherwise..

Also if you prefer to drive an old Subaru costing next to nothing fine but dont talk down people that prefer to have a brandnew car with the latest tech for a sum they are comfortable to pay. Your thruth is not the only thruth, relax different people different tastes.

 

[dutchie01]

2 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Nothing unusual for Spain

The only difference was that previously media and news outlets were not like this

 

Nonsense. Spain is bigger than Seville. This is the second heatwave this year in Spain which normally are located in the South/Middle of the country. First one in June was country wide and this one moved all the way up North through France into the UK.  Ultra High temp and superdry nature caused numerous wildfires and almost dried out water reservoirs. It is a disaster nothing less. Puzzles me how you can blame the press for this. ( or maybe Bill Gates did buy all shares in firefighting equipment companies ithis spring so HE could be behind this?) 

[dutchie01]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

In Madrid temperature was above 40 Celsius (friend of mine) and in Seville it is close to that. Forests are burning in France and Spain and probably more places and in Germany they will now start making electricity with coal power. Not that many years ago in the US they burned corn to make electricity.

What we all do to save the planet for coming generations.

Correct, coal plants are back as Russian gas is no longer or limited available. Germans are deeply worried as they are depending on 60% of total gas imports on Russia. Private people are stocking up on coal and wood for the winter!

By the way Seville now 43 going into 46/47 later this week

[toffee_pie]

28 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

it is called totalitarian control by governments.

Oh Toffee please dont say that you have no idea. The sheer fact you can write this down without a knock on the door at midnight proves otherwise..

Also if you prefer to drive an old Subaru costing next to nothing fine but dont talk down people that prefer to have a brandnew car with the latest tech for a sum they are comfortable to pay. Your thruth is not the only thruth, relax different people different tastes.

 

its nothing to do with a Subaru, it could be any number of other cars - and importing a similar car from Japan of the next to nothing Subaru is going to set you back about £15k with all import fees, if you can get one.

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Nonsense. Spain is bigger than Seville.

And.........

'Spain' will have different weather over the same time period? If you check the amazing google search engine -- you will see temperature extremes of 40C spread around europe every now and again, there was a heatwave back in 1995 and 1976. Google is your friend and many metrology events are not recorded prior to the 70s but we also have this event in 1906 - guess that is climate change too in San Francisco.

Buying a EV will make you feel happy that you are saving humanity or something? Should you not question the 90 odd percent of other sources of harmful greenhouse gas and not the poor combustion engine? that the ordinary tax payer is responsible for? if not why? Its it becaue the science experts are not telling you. 

People like you are probably still waiting for the curve to flatten and the autumn booster of course.

[toffee_pie]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Private people are stocking up on coal and wood for the winter!

Thats because of the scaremongering more than anything else, the same as this

[Bluemarlin]

5 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

The cynic would say a driver to accelerate the decommisnioning of combustion cars to facilitate the roll out of the EVs they are craving so much

And the realist would say it's just a revenue generator, as most petrol cars up to 15 years old are not affected, and so their owners are not being driven to electric at all.

[Bluemarlin]

6 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Well sure but you dont seem to grasp that combustion engines around since the 1800s are getting taken off the road has it not alarmed you in how quickly and decisively governments done this without any input from anyone? 

A modern petrol car have very low g/km of emissions - comapred to a EV with its solid state components and batteries - yet these cars are getting phased out

As for the Technology, speak to anyone who makes these cars ask anyone who works for JLR, Audi, Merceds or BMW and they will tell you the level of integration with the .NET and number of BCUs and level of digital control and such is off the scale, and its only 2022 - if you think the lay person can repair a car in 2030 you really need to look into the mirror - cars will be long past the stage where humans actually drove them they will all be automated

I can only see 3 winners for EVs 

1. Banks

2. Auto manufacturwers - the DIY days are gone and they will have total control of the car from start to finish - Tesla do not disclose IP to anyone, they wont be the last

3. Governments

 

I do grasp it, and it hasn't alarmed me at all. On the contrary, what's more alarming is that until now people have been forced to drive around in 19th century technology. Imagine people bemoaning the lack of valves in televisions, coal fires instead of central heating, or outside toilets. The fact it's been around since the 1800's isn't a plus point and, if any questions need to be asked, it's why it's taken so long to move forward to something better.

Regarding technology, automation, and integration with net. That can, and is happening, regardless of the method of propulsion. Clinging on desperately to 19th century propulsion technology won't change that.

As for lay people repairing their own cars, in the UK at least, most don't even change their own oil, so will be happy to have that cost removed too. Even those who do basic maintenance themselves find it increasingly harder with modern ICE cars, impossible to reach components, and the ever increasing reliance on electronics. The majority just want to drive a car and pay someone else if it goes wrong. So, the potentially lower maintenance requirements of an EV are another benefit.

I wouldn't get hung up on the emissions aspect either, as it's largely irrelevant with lower emission petrol cars, as you rightly point out. For many people it's about the potential for newer technology to provide not only a better and more efficient product, but one that's cheaper and easier to maintain and run.

I can see a 4th winner...consumers.

I know you talk of the current high purchase or lease costs, but that's assuming the car sits on the drive. Take someone who currently does around 12k miles a year at between 30-40 mpg, that's around £300 a month in petrol. The saving from going electric makes a significant dent in any lease cost or loan repayment. Certainly enough to put it on a par with an equivalent ICE car.

By all means be happy with what you have, but don't try convincing others that they're sheep, or are being forced, or duped, when they're equally happy to enjoy the benefits of newer technology.

 

[Boxbrownie]

17 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I get that an EV isn't everyone's cup of tea, but why do you feel that those who buy them are sheep?

Because they have no substantive argument against them.

We bought our EV not to save the planet but because out of curiosity we test drove one at launch back in 2013 and since then decided we wanted one as we just loved the way it drove, we then went through several ICE vehicles we always liked and in 2016 we bought the EV we really wanted, it’s been brilliant.

 

Not one single regret, it’s fun, comfortable, quiet, smooth (unlike any ICE vehicle including the three Lexus we have had) and oh yes……cheap, we bought it new outright and so far it has worked out at about £160 per month, no £500 per month for two/three years and then get stuck again in the magic roundabout of debt for us.

Oh and it’s been the most reliable car we’ve ever had, almost seven years now and not one single breakdown, replacement part (tyres, yes) or…..we’ll anything really.

 

I do find it a little odd that in a forum of whom the manufacturer was one of the pioneering companies of hybrid and Battery traction vehicles there is so much hostility.

[dutchie01]

The term " sheep " is also used in circles of covid deniers. All people taking the vaccine are sheep as they are on the leash of the Governments and the great reset on the background. I guess toffee is using sheep in this frame as well as he is talking about the government controlling all moves electronically through the car. 

Apart from being better for the environment or not i do find driving an EV very enjoyable. I like the silence, the instant torque, lack of gearchange and the overall very very relaxed way of driving. No vibrations, noise, smell it just works for me. Shame Lexus is so late to the party.

[dutchie01]

11 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Thats because of the scaremongering more than anything else, the same as this

Ah yes of course its the press again how could i forget

[Malc]

12 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

ULEZ zones are simply a revenue generator, and so ultimately it's either those, higher council taxes, or higher income taxes. Best way to beat them is to get a compliant car, which includes the majority of petrol cars. It may be ham fisted,  or even a little dishonest in presentation, but it's hardly totalitarian.

Totalitarian and Total Disabled Persons Discriminatory in the City of London by Sadiq Khan ............. it sure is

I say this with conviction ...  from 2 main sources 

A ULEZ compliant London Black Taxi owner and driver and my nephew who's a Freeman of the C of L 

in the City between the hours of 7am - 7pm 5 days a week ......  ONLY buses, cyclists and pedestrians allowed " in "  ......  on the Orders of Mein Fuhrer Sadiq 

the City of London Mayor and all the relevant authority there have been trying in vain ( thus far )  to overturn his diktat

ESSENTIALLY  if you're handicapped and have to get to somewhere in the City of London by car / taxi then you just CANNOT 

yes Totalitarian it can be  .  what the other Cities Zones condemn I have no idea but London for sure is Disabled Discrimatory 

Malc

[Las Palmas]

22 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Apart from being better for the environment or not i do find driving an EV very enjoyable. I like the silence, the instant torque, lack of gearchange and the overall very very relaxed way of driving. No vibrations, noise, smell it just works for me. Shame Lexus is so late to the party.

Lexus / Toyota CVT is probably just as good as the electric cars lack of shifting gears.

With regard to the silence:

When driven normally, just following traffic, the CT we have is silent.

No, it is not!

The noise from the terribly held roads make a lot of noise.

The EVs must be all so good insulated that the road noise is not heard in them.

???

How would I know?

Never been in one.

[First_Lexus]

41 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The term " sheep " is also used in circles of covid deniers

At least we haven’t seen the awful ‘Daily Mailesque’ word ‘Sheeple’ yet…

Oops! 🤪

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Lexus / Toyota CVT is probably just as good as the electric cars lack of shifting gears.

Completely different, in fact it’s the one thing that kept us out of a CVT Lexus was the constant engine revs when any kind of progress was required, an absolute din.

 

But as you say, how would you know you’ve never been in one 😂

[Las Palmas]

53 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Completely different, in fact it’s the one thing that kept us out of a CVT Lexus was the constant engine revs when any kind of progress was required, an absolute din.

 

But as you say, how would you know you’ve never been in one 😂

Different driving style. You need to get full power and violent acceleration. I do not.

Constant engine revs?

Driving Le Mans? Rally? Try a Lancia EVO with low gearing and you will have a beautiful sound from engine while you shock your passenger/co-driver.

 

No road noise in electric cars? What kind of tyres are they on? Or are they being lifted on balloons? Sorry, maybe where you drive road surface is so smooth that it is noiseless.

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Completely different, in fact it’s the one thing that kept us out of a CVT Lexus was the constant engine revs when any kind of progress was required, an absolute din

Stamp on the throttle and you’re quite correct. Drive progressively it works well imho, but accept - as has been said before on the forum - that those who like to drive more ‘aggressively’ probably won’t like the eCVT gearbox. I drive in what I’ll call a ‘relaxed’ manner and prefer eCVT to a traditional torque converter type as it suits me better.

On the subject of noise, I have been in a couple of EVs. The iPace, for all its limitations, was very VERY quiet. However, the ICONIC5 that I test drove wasn’t. Road and wind noise levels were quite poor.

To be fair, the salesman noted that without engine noise, you are initially more aware of road and wind noise, which makes sense to me. He said you adjust expectations within a few days. 

I did like the ICONIC5 but as I said previously, after a long discussion with the salesman he suggested the Winter range at motorway speeds meant it wouldn’t suit me UNLESS I was willing to stop somewhere for a 20 minute top up charge as I compete a weekly 200 mile round trip.

Here’s the thing. When I retire in a few years I will buy an EV. I’m quite looking forward to it. As noted on a different thread, I recently spent a full day looking at and driving EVs with a close relative, who has ordered the Lexus RZ. BUT for what I do now, I consider a 20 minute top up charge as an additional part of a 90 minute journey to be more inconvenient than I’m prepared to tolerate. In the Summer all the salesman agree it would be fine, but they also all agreed that in the Winter below 10C and at 70mph cars with an advertised range of 280-300 miles wouldn’t manage the 200 mile round trip without a top up. 

As they should have wanted to sell me a car, I’d trust their view as they don’t want a dis-satisfied customer. That’s quite comforting. I found them to be realistic and pragmatic rather than evangelical.

[Bluemarlin]

4 hours ago, Malc said:

Totalitarian and Total Disabled Persons Discriminatory in the City of London by Sadiq Khan ............. it sure is

I say this with conviction ...  from 2 main sources 

A ULEZ compliant London Black Taxi owner and driver and my nephew who's a Freeman of the C of L 

in the City between the hours of 7am - 7pm 5 days a week ......  ONLY buses, cyclists and pedestrians allowed " in "  ......  on the Orders of Mein Fuhrer Sadiq 

the City of London Mayor and all the relevant authority there have been trying in vain ( thus far )  to overturn his diktat

ESSENTIALLY  if you're handicapped and have to get to somewhere in the City of London by car / taxi then you just CANNOT 

yes Totalitarian it can be  .  what the other Cities Zones condemn I have no idea but London for sure is Disabled Discrimatory 

Malc

I was not aware of that Malcolm, but it does sound somewhat draconian. The Mayor of London does appear to be a bit of a zealot.

I've just had a read of some the restrictions in the City of London, and it appears confusing but, as you say doesn't seem to take into account the needs of the disabled or those unable to walk or cycle.

Many of the restrictions appear to be trials, so hopefully they'll get ditched, or at least allow provision for certain vehicles or types of access.

[Malc]

3 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

doesn't seem to take into account the needs of the disabled

Sadiq Khan is simply totally anti handicapped and disabled people ....  a zealot for sure BUT also Discrimatory and Evil in his thoughts towards handicapped people 

                 don't you think ???  😈

Malc