Notice Of Inpending Prosecution.

[fil4362]

2 weeks ago i posted i had recieved a notice for jumping a red light. As the camera that "got me" was at the site of some major road works and temp lights were in operation, i asked for the photo of the "crime" i recieved nothing. Last week i got a letter saying they were no longer proceeding with it.

All well and good until this morning when i got another one, same junction as last time. The temp lights have now been removed but due to the road works theres lots of congestion at the junction. I have requested the picture, and whilst on the phone was told i was doing 12 mph 33 seconds after the lights changed.

i know i would of never intentionally jumped a light, certainly not 33 seconds after it went red, the junction in question is on a long straight road and i can see the lights for a good half mile away so would have had plenty of time to stop.

i can only think i had crossed the line into the junction to turn right, and had to wait for trafic to clear until i could turn. If the lights went red after i has already over the line then surely i should clear the junction, as long as its safe to do so. the junction is not cross hatch with yellow boxes, so therefore i can enter it.

I am curently awaiting the picture but i think its happened as i described above, so any advice on it would be helpfull am i in the wrong or was i doing what is right ??. if i think i was were i was in the junction then staying put when the lights changed would have caused more of a problem than moving.

[Steve ( West Mids )]

I think you have got to wait for the picture to see what it shows. Maybe if it's got you with inicator going right and cars coming the other way over the red you have a chance to challange. 33 seconds is a long time ..................

[fil4362]

ok i have the picture now. It has, as i hoped, promted me into remembering what happened. i was in the right hand lane second car back. i heard sirens behind as the one car in the left hand lane seemed oblivious to the police van behind us myself and the guy in the car infront of me moved out into the junction to allow the police van through. As i rolled forward the car in the left lane now realising what was happening drove off through the junction. I applied my brakes and stopped. my rear wheels had just crossed the line.

In the picture you can clearly see the police van you can also clearly see my brake lights on. I have contacted the central ticket office only to be told that "i still dont have an excuse". Apparently i crossed the line as the police van did if the police van was in the left lane i had no reason to move any where. My point is as i was breaking and stopping again after moving forward from aprox 20 feet behind the line and the picture clearly shows me stopping and the fact the camera only reads me at 12 mph surely this is reason enough not to be issued a ticket. The really annoying thing is when the lights did change i followed the police van out of curiosity. I found it a mile down the road outside the police station which is only open office hours and as my "Crime" happened at 21.33 why was the police van in such a rush to get to a closed station. Does anyone know if a police vehicle in an emergancy has to "log" it. if so this log would be good for me to access as the driver of the police van would be my perfect witness when it goes to court.

[john99t-reg]

you cannot go through red lights mate for any reason, even moving for emergency vehicles. A taxi driver got done in doncaster for an ambulance, it was in the picture and everything was clear what happened but still got done, even after local media pressure. I was shocked that common sense cannot prevail but everyone would do it as it's morally correct. I always look over my left shoulder now to see if it's camered up before i move now.

[Parthiban]

Personally if that happened to me I'd take it to court, but I'm not sure of the legality surrounding it. Technically as you haven't crossed the junction and simply moved across the white line, I would have thought you could get off that.

[steve2006]

So if I am waiting at the stop line of a set of traffic lights, with a camera, on red at rush hour and an emergency vehicle is approaching with it's blues and twos on and I need to move out of it's way I would have to move forward to pull over therefore crossing the stop line therefore committing an offence?

If that is the case and I am put in that situation I will turn the stereo up and look vacant.

Petty beaurocrats comes to mind.

Tax need'nt be taxing you can pay by post,online or at any speed camera location

Can you also be prosecuted for preventing the progress of an emergency vehicle in its duty?

[dandydons]

I would take that one all the way. You could hope that they realise they are wasting court time before it gets to the hearing and may drop the case. Also prior to the hearing ask for the details of the police van driver and tell them you will be citing him as a witness. That might put them off a bit.

I once saw a fire engine on emergency call swipe a car out of the way even though the driver was clearly trying to pull in. I gave the car driver my details and although he had a nightmare claiming for the damage off their insurance he did get it eventually- certainly never got done for obstructing them !

[dave1]

Personally if that happened to me I'd take it to court, but I'm not sure of the legality surrounding it. Technically as you haven't crossed the junction and simply moved across the white line, I would have thought you could get off that.

Strictly by the letter of the law the offence is committed as soon as the solid white line at the lights is crossed, without the need to actually cross the junction. It is illegal to cross red traffic lights unless directed to do so by a uniformed police officer who is directing traffic, not a policeman sitting in a police car. The same applies to box junctions and bus lanes, if you enter them even to make way for an emergency vehicle you run the risk of prosecution.

[paul richmond]

2 weeks ago i posted i had recieved a notice for jumping a red light. As the camera that "got me" was at the site of some major road works and temp lights were in operation, i asked for the photo of the "crime" i recieved nothing. Last week i got a letter saying they were no longer proceeding with it.

All well and good until this morning when i got another one, same junction as last time. The temp lights have now been removed but due to the road works theres lots of congestion at the junction. I have requested the picture, and whilst on the phone was told i was doing 12 mph 33 seconds after the lights changed.

i know i would of never intentionally jumped a light, certainly not 33 seconds after it went red, the junction in question is on a long straight road and i can see the lights for a good half mile away so would have had plenty of time to stop.

i can only think i had crossed the line into the junction to turn right, and had to wait for trafic to clear until i could turn. If the lights went red after i has already over the line then surely i should clear the junction, as long as its safe to do so. the junction is not cross hatch with yellow boxes, so therefore i can enter it.

I am curently awaiting the picture but i think its happened as i described above, so any advice on it would be helpfull am i in the wrong or was i doing what is right ??. if i think i was were i was in the junction then staying put when the lights changed would have caused more of a problem than moving.

i think theres some **** rules its all just a money makin racket

[Parthiban]

Strictly by the letter of the law the offence is committed as soon as the solid white line at the lights is crossed, without the need to actually cross the junction. It is illegal to cross red traffic lights unless directed to do so by a uniformed police officer who is directing traffic, not a policeman sitting in a police car. The same applies to box junctions and bus lanes, if you enter them even to make way for an emergency vehicle you run the risk of prosecution.

Yes I agree that the offence has been committed, but seeing as you get done either way, I'd try taking it to court and appealing to the common sense of a judge :)

[dave1]

Strictly by the letter of the law the offence is committed as soon as the solid white line at the lights is crossed, without the need to actually cross the junction. It is illegal to cross red traffic lights unless directed to do so by a uniformed police officer who is directing traffic, not a policeman sitting in a police car. The same applies to box junctions and bus lanes, if you enter them even to make way for an emergency vehicle you run the risk of prosecution.

Yes I agree that the offence has been committed, but seeing as you get done either way, I'd try taking it to court and appealing to the common sense of a judge :)

I agree and would elect to go to court if it was me, although I think it would be a Magistrates Court. Whilst the magistrates would almost certainly stick to the letter of the law and enter a guilty verdict, there might be a chance of avoiding "points on licence"......although judges and magistrates are not normally known for their "common sense"

[safetyman]

This is an extract from a blue light training course i done. I used to be on the Coastguard serach and rescue team and i had the chance to do a five day driver training course with the police. I think there is a web page some where with the same info posted.

Blue Lights can not be used merely for convenience

There are restrictions upon the use of blue lights. Take a look at these four statements and see which ones you think are correct.

1.Vehicles that carry blue lights can drive as fast as they like at any time.

2.If a traffic light is on red then we are permitted to cross it to clear the way for a vehicle with its blue lights on.

3.Vehicles with blue lights flashing have the right of way in all situations.

4.Fire engines may push your vehicle if it is in the way.

To take the blue light questions one at a time:-

1) Vehicles that carry blue lights can drive as fast as they like at any time.

In their dreams maybe. When the blue lights are off they are bound by the same rules of the road as the rest of us. When the blue lights and sirens are on they may travel as fast as it is safe to do so if the situation requires it.

2) If a traffic light is on red then we are permitted to cross it to clear the way for a vehicle with its blue lights on.

Not a chance. Crossing a red light may cause an unexpected hazard for other traffic who may not have been aware of the emergency vehicle. The priority remains with the other traffic. If the blue light emergency vehicle does not have the space to get by and the traffic from the other direction has stopped as well then it would be safe to move forward to make a gap. Plenty of observation would of course be required.

3) Vehicles with blue lights flashing have the right of way in all situations.

As they approach a major junction blue light vehicles will be very progressive with their driving and they will move forwards as far as they possibly can before being forced to halt by the traffic. Blue light vehicles however do not have the right to just drive into the flow of traffic unless it is safe to do so.

4) Fire engines may push your vehicle if it is in the way.

The fire service is allowed to move any vehicles blocking their way if they cannot find the driver. They will do everything that they can to move it without damaging it. If they still cannot gain the necessary access to the scene of an emergency then they will probably attach a chain to the axle and drag it. If this is not possible they will tip your vehicle onto its side if necessary to get by. Their first priority has got to be attending the emergency to which they have been called out!

Regards

Eddie

[dandydons]

4) Fire engines may push your vehicle if it is in the way.

The fire service is allowed to move any vehicles blocking their way if they cannot find the driver. They will do everything that they can to move it without damaging it. If they still cannot gain the necessary access to the scene of an emergency then they will probably attach a chain to the axle and drag it. If this is not possible they will tip your vehicle onto its side if necessary to get by. Their first priority has got to be attending the emergency to which they have been called out!

Regards

Eddie

Some good info on your post . The fire engine I mentioned hit a car with the driver in it and basically made no real effort to avoid him.

[Damer]

You have made the new mate.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...ing_police_pass

[fil4362]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...ing_police_pass

yep thats me. as you can see from the story i wasnt that far over the line i was also stopping. i also was in local free paper daily mirror daily mail daily express featured on local regional news local radio channel m (local tv station) was also on bbc glasgow drive time show ?? no idea why. i am doing interview tomorrow evening with bbc radio 4.

As it currently stand, the manchester evening news has recieved a statemant say " the police wil not persue this case" but as of today i have not officialy been let of. i have spoken to rospa and about 3 other expert "driving" groups. non of them give a clear view of what the law say in these matters. everyone quotes the highway code section 219 which states something about movign out of the way but still obaying road signs. so what does that actually mean.

bottom line if you can generate enough media attention, and your case is sound you will get of with it. thankfully i have done many charity gigs and functions in my time so have a few contacts in the press, but to be honest it got a little silly in the end. i mean bbc glasgow ?? what they wanted i dotn know i am in manchester. now bbc radio 4 want to interview me with regaurds a new siren they may be issueing to ambulances, and do i think it would of helped in my situation.

oh and the idiots that have come and asked my for my autograph,,, get a life. non of here i may add so dont take it personally

[Rob]

it says that u contacted the issuing office you were told its a lost cause so you didnt take it any further..... please tell me that wasnt what really happened????

[fil4362]

ye thats the way it happened. i contacted the ticket office they told me its a clear cut case i crossed the line i was "getting done"i wasnt going to go to court just means time of work i got space for points and 60 quid is still cheaper then couple of half days of work for going to court. the other option is what i did.go to the press. bottom line i did couple of interviews, picked up a couple of free plugs for my garage and un officialy at this point, im not "getting done".

i have yet to hear officailly that the case is dropped so sent of the paperwork pleading guilty yesturday. i now half hope they miss my name and "do" me for it. the police did send an official statement to the press saying they were dropping all charges so if i still "get done" it will show how stupid the system is.

i have heard from rospa the police and 2 other drive safe compainers and am still no clearer as to what to do if the same thing happens again. the highway code says assist the emergancy vehicle whilst still observing any road signs. rospa say the police are trianed to manouver around traffic in such cases. so both would suggest not moving if the lights are on red.

[steve2006]

After reading this topic I was in a similar situation last week with an emergency vehicle coming up behind me whilst at a red light.

I started ( instinct I think) to go over the line to clear the way then remembered and stayed where I was, got a dirty look off the paramedic when he did go past but after this no way am I risking points and a fine.

[shazzaoffour]

2 weeks ago i posted i had recieved a notice for jumping a red light. As the camera that "got me" was at the site of some major road works and temp lights were in operation, i asked for the photo of the "crime" i recieved nothing. Last week i got a letter saying they were no longer proceeding with it.

All well and good until this morning when i got another one, same junction as last time. The temp lights have now been removed but due to the road works theres lots of congestion at the junction. I have requested the picture, and whilst on the phone was told i was doing 12 mph 33 seconds after the lights changed.

i know i would of never intentionally jumped a light, certainly not 33 seconds after it went red, the junction in question is on a long straight road and i can see the lights for a good half mile away so would have had plenty of time to stop.

i can only think i had crossed the line into the junction to turn right, and had to wait for trafic to clear until i could turn. If the lights went red after i has already over the line then surely i should clear the junction, as long as its safe to do so. the junction is not cross hatch with yellow boxes, so therefore i can enter it.

I am curently awaiting the picture but i think its happened as i described above, so any advice on it would be helpfull am i in the wrong or was i doing what is right ??. if i think i was were i was in the junction then staying put when the lights changed would have caused more of a problem than moving.

I think you should ask for it to go to court & get one of these no win no fee solicitors & argue your case. If you were over the lights before they turned red & you only had to move because of an Emergency unit then I think you would have a good case.

[dave1]

I think you should ask for it to go to court & get one of these no win no fee solicitors & argue your case. If you were over the lights before they turned red & you only had to move because of an Emergency unit then I think you would have a good case.

They only take cases that they are 99.9% certain to win and this case, although it might be heard sympathetically, is still only going to have a guilty verdict at a court of law. Looking at the photo evidence in the press there appears to be no reason to cross the line to allow the police vehicle passage as the other lanes seem to be clear anyway. Case of "grin and bear it" I think.

[steve2006]

2 weeks ago i posted i had recieved a notice for jumping a red light. As the camera that "got me" was at the site of some major road works and temp lights were in operation, i asked for the photo of the "crime" i recieved nothing. Last week i got a letter saying they were no longer proceeding with it.

All well and good until this morning when i got another one, same junction as last time. The temp lights have now been removed but due to the road works theres lots of congestion at the junction. I have requested the picture, and whilst on the phone was told i was doing 12 mph 33 seconds after the lights changed.

i know i would of never intentionally jumped a light, certainly not 33 seconds after it went red, the junction in question is on a long straight road and i can see the lights for a good half mile away so would have had plenty of time to stop.

i can only think i had crossed the line into the junction to turn right, and had to wait for trafic to clear until i could turn. If the lights went red after i has already over the line then surely i should clear the junction, as long as its safe to do so. the junction is not cross hatch with yellow boxes, so therefore i can enter it.

I am curently awaiting the picture but i think its happened as i described above, so any advice on it would be helpfull am i in the wrong or was i doing what is right ??. if i think i was were i was in the junction then staying put when the lights changed would have caused more of a problem than moving.

I think you should ask for it to go to court & get one of these no win no fee solicitors & argue your case. If you were over the lights before they turned red & you only had to move because of an Emergency unit then I think you would have a good case.

Yes then you could also claim for whiplash injuries!

[fil4362]

The left hand lane in the picture is clear. About 3 seconds before the picture was taken the car that you can see disapearing around the left turn was still in the left lane and wasnt in a rush to go anywhere. The car in the right lane infront of me moved into the junction so i could follow him through as, like i said, the car in the left lane seemed oblivious to the police van. As the car infront of me moved off i followed, it was us moving that prompted the car in the left lane to move ( i presume he thought the lights had changed). As soon as the car in the left lane moved i didnt need to move so this is why i stopped again. the picture clearly shows my brake lights on, and no its not the reflection from the camera flash, my eye level brake light is on and thats not reflective. As for the ploice van manouvering around the right hand side of us, due to the road works the road was coned off for 100 yeard behind us so there was no way anyone was gettign around the outside of us.

In the picture you can clearly see the Vauxhall Astra in the middle of the junction this car was infront of me at the lights so theres no way i went through the lights as when i got to them both lanes were full. The ticket says i crossed the line 33 seconds after the lights had been on red and i was only doing 12 mph so theres no way i was jumping the lights. i was making room for the police van. once there was room i stopped . If anyone is at fault of recless or dangerous driving you should be asking the driver of the police van. I recieved to pictures in the first picture my front wheels have just crossed the line. Tn the second picture the line is just infront of my rear wheels. Rated at 12mph. Now i dont know the time lapse between the 2 shots but in the first picture the police van is in the picture. The second picture the police van has gone from shot. I have been to the junction and the distance between the road sign next to the police van and where the van would be out of shot is about 20 yards. I am no mathmatition but if i did 4 yards in half a second ?? and that 12mph. The police van in the same half a second did 20 yards so roughly thats 50 mph isnt it??. 50 mph through a red light sirens or not whos being recless ??? i did 12 mph 4 yards over the line the police van did 50mph through the junction..

Oh and just to add the road works are still at the junction and theres temp lights inplace again, the cameras are still turned on and flashing away for fun. this is how i got a ticket 2 weeks before this one. How stupid is it to leave the cameras turned on when the lights are turned of. nearly everyone cross the junction will be getting a ticket for going through a red light thats covered up.

[Monster-Mat]

that is incredibly hard to read...how about some structure to the post?

[dave1]

[The ticket says i crossed the line 33 seconds after the lights had been on red and i was only doing 12 mph so theres no way i was jumping the lights. i was making room for the police van. once there was room i stopped . If anyone is at fault of recless or dangerous driving you should be asking the driver of the police van. I recieved to pictures in the first picture my front wheels have just crossed the line. Tn the second picture the line is just infront of my rear wheels. Rated at 12mph. Now i dont know the time lapse between the 2 shots but in the first picture the police van is in the picture. The second picture the police van has gone from shot. I have been to the junction and the distance between the road sign next to the police van and where the van would be out of shot is about 20 yards. I am no mathmatition but if i did 4 yards in half a second ?? and that 12mph. The police van in the same half a second did 20 yards so roughly thats 50 mph isnt it??. 50 mph through a red light sirens or not whos being recless ??? i did 12 mph 4 yards over the line the police van did 50mph through the junction..

To be honest I find this all a bit strange. It would appear from what you are saying that your car went from stationary to an unknown speed in 4 yards. I say an unknown speed because the two photos show the average speed between them. When the first pic was taken you were presumably just moving and when the second picture was taken 0.5 sec later it is giving you a speed of 12mph between the cameras.

[Yeldarb]

Clearly sorry to see this post, an incident EXACTLY the same happened in Luton where a driver moved out of the way to let an ambulance through, he was prosecuted and the court refused the mitigating evidence.