Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[dutchie01]

https://carbuzz.com/news/top-scientist-outlines-toyotas-measured-approach-to-evs

 

[dutchie01]

10 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Something somewhere must be getting lost in translation where governments listen to manufacturers and the like.

The whole circus leading up to the 95 grams regulation took well over 10 years with automotive lobby putting their full weight in. It was softened, delayed, compromised all you can think of until it was set in stone and connected to heavy fines if the average co2 of the entire fleet exceeds 95grams. For manufacturers this is an outright nightmare and has truly massive consequences so yes i see why everybody is protesting. First of all engineering a petrol engine to emit below 95 is so costly it cannot be used in the A nor B segment cars without heavy price increases making the cars unsellable. Thats why they are disappearing rapidly. Another reason is manufacturers are ectively steering sales to remain below the threshold of 95 grams. As small cars are volume sellers they can imbalance your average fleetsales rapidly creating massive fines. Thats why VW simply did not supply the Polo for months and months. manufacturers are using the loopholes of the regulations and can easily add more weight to a car to make it eligible for over 95 grams. - Vehicle weight is retained as the underlying utility parameter, i.e., the heavier a manufacturer’s car fleet, the higher the CO2 emission value allowed by the regulation. The factor used is 0.0333, meaning that for every 100 kg additional  vehicle weight, the emission of 3.33 g/km more of CO2 is allowed. Wonder why we end up with ever heavier cars? Then they have to create new factories productionlines, new contracts with suppliers ( in this world a bomb has gone off, imagine the thousands of companies supplying all engine parts that are no longer needed..). They are literally forced to invest billions of Euros in this transfer and exactly that is happening.

Anyway the more EVs are produced the more economical it is to produce them and VW for instance is expecting BEV production to be as profitable as ICE very soon.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagens-ev-business-profitable-combustion-engines-sooner-than-planned-ceo-2022-05-12/#:~:text=Volkswagen's EV profit margins to match combustion engines sooner than planned - CEO,-Reuters&text=BERLIN%2C May 12 (Reuters),Herbert Diess said on Thursday.

Where all this will lead? no idea but in 5 years the automotive world will be a very different place.

 

 

[royoftherovers]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The whole circus leading up to the 95 grams regulation took well over 10 years with automotive lobby putting their full weight in. It was softened, delayed, compromised all you can think of until it was set in stone and connected to heavy fines if the average co2 of the entire fleet exceeds 95grams. For manufacturers this is an outright nightmare and has truly massive consequences so yes i see why everybody is protesting. First of all engineering a petrol engine to emit below 95 is so costly it cannot be used in the A nor B segment cars without heavy price increases making the cars unsellable. Thats why they are disappearing rapidly. Another reason is manufacturers are ectively steering sales to remain below the threshold of 95 grams. As small cars are volume sellers they can imbalance your average fleetsales rapidly creating massive fines. Thats why VW simply did not supply the Polo for months and months. manufacturers are using the loopholes of the regulations and can easily add more weight to a car to make it eligible for over 95 grams. - Vehicle weight is retained as the underlying utility parameter, i.e., the heavier a manufacturer’s car fleet, the higher the CO2 emission value allowed by the regulation. The factor used is 0.0333, meaning that for every 100 kg additional  vehicle weight, the emission of 3.33 g/km more of CO2 is allowed. Wonder why we end up with ever heavier cars? Then they have to create new factories productionlines, new contracts with suppliers ( in this world a bomb has gone off, imagine the thousands of companies supplying all engine parts that are no longer needed..). They are literally forced to invest billions of Euros in this transfer and exactly that is happening.

Anyway the more EVs are produced the more economical it is to produce them and VW for instance is expecting BEV production to be as profitable as ICE very soon.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagens-ev-business-profitable-combustion-engines-sooner-than-planned-ceo-2022-05-12/#:~:text=Volkswagen's EV profit margins to match combustion engines sooner than planned - CEO,-Reuters&text=BERLIN%2C May 12 (Reuters),Herbert Diess said on Thursday.

Where all this will lead? no idea but in 5 years the automotive world will be a very different place.

 

 

A great informative posting Bernard.

Annd it is why we are not provided with a Spare Wheel anymore.

[wharfhouse]

16 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Great article by Ray Massey. Below is a YouTube video from a vlogger I quite like. The circumstances of the results well could have happened on any day. The video outlines the lack of working chargers. Enjoy

 

 

Brilliant vlog. Only a few days old so bang up to date. Really highlights the totally shambolic infrastructure and why EV ownership for the masses who can't charge at home or need to do long journeys is just not workable. Of course, this is where Tesla owners have some advantage with their dedicated network (though that is starting to get overloaded with waiting cars at peak times) and I read that Mercedes is looking to roll out it's own dedicated network too. What a crazy situation when one has to choose an EV car based on the infrastructure to have any chance of reliable charging away from home...

The issue with many of the EV charging points (as highlighted in the vlog) is they are unmanned and only one or a handful of charging points - if you think of a fuel station there is usually someone there who will sort out getting a pump fixed if it fails - and there are plenty of pumps should one be out of order anyway (and it's quick to refuel).

[First_Lexus]

I saw something strange yesterday - or perhaps not so strange. And I swear I’m not making this up for effect.

On a small section of the M4, between Hungerford and Reading, two broken down Tesla a few miles apart…

It was very cold yesterday morning, and foggy. There could be any number of reasons for the two breakdowns - although they didn’t appear to have punctures - but my mind could only go to expired range.

I’ve noted previously the numbers of EVs I now see on motorways trundling along in lane one at 55-60 mph to conserve range. With more EVs and poor infrastructure I can only imagine how many more range breakdowns we’ll start to see…

Both Giles Coren and Helen Skelton were on radio last week noting how they had broken down in their EVs because of unavailable public chargers. Giles Coren has since abandoned his EV and written about why in The Times (I think).

[Mr Vlad]

I have no doubts about what you saw on the M4. I'm sure those will occur more often. 

And as for those 'trundling along' at 55-60 mph those drivers need arresting for driving with undue care and attention. They cause so much stress to HGV drivers and their ignorance to those HGV drivers is unbelievable. 

[GSLV6]

The argument about capital costs coming down usually is the case as more are produced and cost of parts can benefit from economies of scale, but there are several over-riding considerations which make a mockery of the whole nonsense.  The first is that we currently are experiencing for the first time since the early 1970's threats of power outages at peak times to meet current demand, and with no major reinforcement to electricity production, that problem is only going to get worse.  It takes over 20 years to plan, build and commission a nuclear power station, overcoming the funding, planning and technological difficulties.  The UK government really hasn't thought it through instead relying on bully boy and frankly tyrannical practices by simply imposing their zero carbon targets which will do little to affect global CO2 levels but punitively punish the UK economy  on a scale never before seen.

Getting away from the politics of it all, there's then the fact that world copper demand means rising prices and much of what we use being unsustainable recycling and purification for the required copper specifications as the only places mining it are China and Australia AFAIK.  So is doubling the amount or more of copper for each vehicle sustainable?  That and the Lithium elephant in the room storing up a massive toxic problem for the future, which by now we were promised would have been overcome by solid state Battery development which is still very much in infancy.

Then there's the complete and utter mess of the charging network where any journey over 100 miles requires very careful planning.  A relative had to recently make a 500 mile round trip in his new EV car.  He thought he had it licked with planned stops for charging en-route and adequate range between stops but at the first stop, half of the charging points were out of service and even had he braved the queue for the remaining ones, he didn't have the required app as each station seemed to use different providers, meaning signing up to a load of the things.  Hs actual V's estimated range fell massively short in the end necessitating something like 10 hours of delays for additional stops including waiting for a slot and then waiting for the charging.

On his return he is now questioning the wisdom of spending a not inconsiderable sum on an EV when a plug in hybrid would have been the wiser choice.

I can see the sensibility for urban areas where clean air is at a premium but you will also shortly pay a premium for using an EV in both charging cost and planned changes to the road taxation system  Highways and highways repairs still need funding and the two main sources are vehicle licence tax and S106 payments from major developments.  Add to that the claimed electrical efficiencies, well currently these are NOT calculated at source (ie from power station to end user to miles travelled) but only at the point of use.

Given that petrol engined vehicles (exclude diesel here for a moment which means excluding shipping and HGV and public transport) are responsible for around 0.3% of UK's CO2 emissions with total vehicles responsible for circa 1% and there is no case for a cost benefit either environmentally and certainly not economically.

The whole thing at a legislative political level is a farce and the way it's being delivered farcical.  I for one, will be hanging on to my petrol hybrid for many years into the future but we may concede chopping our smaller 2nd car in for an EV for local trips only which is where I see them making most sense.

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

Well said Paul. Took some thought writing your post and giving the example of a relative of yours. Thanks for that input. Appreciated. 

[Jgtcracer]

16 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

I saw something strange yesterday - or perhaps not so strange. And I swear I’m not making this up for effect.

On a small section of the M4, between Hungerford and Reading, two broken down Tesla a few miles apart…

It was very cold yesterday morning, and foggy. There could be any number of reasons for the two breakdowns - although they didn’t appear to have punctures - but my mind could only go to expired range.

I’ve noted previously the numbers of EVs I now see on motorways trundling along in lane one at 55-60 mph to conserve range. With more EVs and poor infrastructure I can only imagine how many more range breakdowns we’ll start to see…

Both Giles Coren and Helen Skelton were on radio last week noting how they had broken down in their EVs because of unavailable public chargers. Giles Coren has since abandoned his EV and written about why in The Times (I think).

Just out of interest, I wonder what the AA do if you run out of electricity?  Tow to the nearest charger?  To be honest, not sure they carry fuel to help ICE cars either.

 Can imagine some H+S policy stopping them carrying flammable liquids or something!

[Las Palmas]

GP JOULE ordering over 100 Nikola hydrogen trucks.

The fuel cell vehicles for this order will be manufactured in Germany by Nikola and Iveco Group.

The hydrogen trucks being ordered is the European 6×2 variant of the vehicle. It will be manufactured by Nikola and Iveco Group in Ulm, Germany. The first thirty vehicles for this order are expected to be delivered to GP JOULE in 2024. The remaining 70 vehicles to complete the order will be delivered in 2025.

The deal provides GP JOULE with the possibility of acquiring the vehicles through GATE, the Green & Advanced Transport Ecosystem, which is the all-inclusive electric truck rental model at Iveco Group.

The essential maintenance and service functions for the hydrogen trucks will be provided by Iveco.

GP JOULE will be making the 100 fuel cell vehicles available to its transport and logistics customers. The order remains a Letter of Intent. It is still subject to the successful application by GP JOULE for KsNI funding. KsNI is the program in Germany developed to support the acquisition of cleaner vehicles as a part of an overall decarbonization goal.

Nederst på formuMoreover, GP JOULE and Iveco Group agreed that starting in 2026, they will market additional fuel cell vehicles to European customers. GP JOULE will be providing its customers will 100 percent green H2 at their network of H2 refueling stations.

“The order from GP JOULE will be an example of how the Nikola Tre FCEV can further support commercial customers in Germany in their transition towards zero-emissions several years ahead of other OEMs, which helps to achieve the goal of decarbonizing the transportation sector,” said Nikola Corporation President and CEO Michael Lohscheller.

“100% renewable energy for all, this is what drives us. Together with Nikola and IVECO, we offer our customers all the components for climate-neutral heavy-duty transport from a single source: from the production and purchase of green hydrogen to the hydrogen filling stations to the fuel cell trucks and service that meet their needs,” added GP JOULE HYDROGEN managing director Andre Steinau. “This is the easy entry into emission-free freight transport.”

[wharfhouse]

7 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

Just out of interest, I wonder what the AA do if you run out of electricity?  Tow to the nearest charger?  To be honest, not sure they carry fuel to help ICE cars either.

 Can imagine some H+S policy stopping them carrying flammable liquids or something!

Flatbed to the nearest charger / home or I heard something about new vans havlng emergency recharge units that can add enough miles to a BEV Battery to get the car to charger. 

[wharfhouse]

Another article in the press starting to shine some light on the 2030 ban on ICE:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/26/great-electric-car-con/

[wharfhouse]

It looks like all the media are now running articles on the pitfalls facing the country of the impending 2030 deadline and the woeful lack of investment in an infrastructure:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11681341/How-lack-chargers-soaring-power-costs-sent-electric-vehicle-revolution-reverse.html

[Mr Vlad]

Yes more and more stories like this are coming out of the woodwork. 

It was asked above what happens if an EV runs out of electricity. Well for one it can Not be towed because that wrecks the electric motors. They have to be lifted onto a flat bed truck. And yes there are vans with the capability to charge an EV. I've actually seen a couple. Now that could be a very profitable business having a van with a very good generator to charge run down EV'S. 

[Las Palmas]

13 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

It looks like all the media are now running articles on the pitfalls facing the country of the impending 2030 deadline and the woeful lack of investment in an infrastructure:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11681341/How-lack-chargers-soaring-power-costs-sent-electric-vehicle-revolution-reverse.html

The Daily Mail was interesting read. The Telegraph not. Want me to register - not interested.

Wonder how many EV fans there will be in 4 - 5 years except from those having charging stations home, own solar cells and only using the cars for short local trips. Cars will then be for the super-rich, the rest of us can stand in line waiting for a bus.

[Mr Vlad]

Don't think it'll be as bad as that John. There will be far too many of us still driving our cars in 20 years that the authorities can't do diddlysquat against. 

Up the Revolution 

[wharfhouse]

17 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

The Daily Mail was interesting read. The Telegraph not. Want me to register - not interested.

Apologies about that - I don't have any subscriptions but seems that the newspaper sites randomly display the full articles for some people and block others... 

[Las Palmas]

1 minute ago, wharfhouse said:

Apologies about that - I don't have any subscriptions but seems that the newspaper sites randomly display the full articles for some people and block others... 

No problem. Telegraph is not interested in informing people, only selling news. OK. Maybe they do not sell paper editions anymore.

The hydrogen news I copy from news site, so I do not risk that other reading here cannot see them. Not really much work.

[wharfhouse]

9 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

No problem. Telegraph is not interested in informing people, only selling news. OK. Maybe they do not sell paper editions anymore.

The hydrogen news I copy from news site, so I do not risk that other reading here cannot see them. Not really much work.

I'm always a bit concerned over copyright cutting and pasting the article as a whole. 

[Las Palmas]

26 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Don't think it'll be as bad as that John. There will be far too many of us still driving our cars in 20 years that the authorities can't do diddlysquat against. 

Up the Revolution 

I like the optimistic way you think. I believe they will make gasoline price impossible to pay and I do not feel like robbing a bank.

Hopefully some of the hydrogen projects are going so good for trucks and delivery van companies that the politicians can be forced to change their minds; somebody will have to change them for them as thinking is not needed to become politician.

[Las Palmas]

5 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

I'm always a bit concerned over copyright cutting and pasting the article as a whole. 

Probably right so, but I think that hydrogen news is interested in as many as possible are being informed, that I doubt they will do anything but praise that the news they publish will be spread around.

[Las Palmas]

If you want hydrogen news in your in-box subscribe:

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/green-h2-lkab-hybrit/8556993/?awt_a=1jpsU&awt_l=IFzTR&awt_m=hEZCB5HgBe5DlsU

They do not spam or sell your mail-address.

[Mr Vlad]

I don't think petrol or diesel prices will reach a point where one needs to rob a bank to pay for it John. 

You should send that link for hydrogen news to Malc.

Am seeing more and more comparison between EV and ICE and slowly but surely a trend if forming about the date when ICE sales is banned. I'm thinking that date is decades away.

[wharfhouse]

Some market corrections starting to take place for EVs - residuals on used cars is starting to take a hit which will affect those on something like a PCP as they may not have anything left above the minimum guaranteed final value at trade in. It will also start and make PCPs more expensive on EVs as manufacturers lower the guaranteed final values to protect themselves. 

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/official-tesla-model-y-loses-14k-in-four-months-as-ev-prices-tank-further-in-january/278815

[First_Lexus]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

No problem. Telegraph is not interested in informing people, only selling news. OK. Maybe they do not sell paper editions anymore.

I still buy an actual, physical, newspaper three or four times a week as well as a couple of printed magazines monthly.

I’m always surprised how many other people I know do too, as registering for numerous online platforms is tiresome and nowhere near as easy to read as the printed article.

Am I a Luddite? Hopefully…I take such labels as a compliment!