Paypal Is ***** Take!

[VVProtocolVV]

Yep, it's finally happened to me after reading numbers of many others that are done by, by paypal. Heres my story, i have tried to cut alot of it out so you can get the whole picture quickly, still i suggest you get a cup of tea and wear your reading glasses :-

I sold an item on eBay for £***.** amount and the buyer pays straight away, no problem there. Then i pack the item and sent it via royal mail special delivery the following day. I get back home and find out eBay has sent me an email that the buyers account has been closed (closed by eBay themselves), ofcourse i rush down to the post office to try to get the parcel back but royal mail won't have any of it. They say that even with the recipt they cannot give me the item (yes its the same lady that dealt with me in the counter) as it's now belongs to royal mail. So theres me watching my item leave the post office and theres nothing i can do, i phoned royal mail HQ and they said the same thing.

Back home again i send an email to eBay to say that the item has already been sent and they advise me to make sure i keep the recept. Later that week paypal withholds the buyers funds which is already in my paypal account and awaiting transfer to my bank account. They reverse the transfer so its basically back in my paypal again (but it's in limbo until investigation is finished), this happened on the 10th July. But anyway they ask me to provide proof of delivery etc etc, so i fax them the details and i also phoned paypal to confirm the fax i had sent them, which they said they have at their office. The funds was withheld until 15th July, which they finally gave it the clear and credited the amount back to my palpay account. I quickly transfered this to my bank and have since then done another 5 or so transactions (both selling and buying). Then one day i went to pay for an item i have won on eBay and i couldn't, it said that i cannot use my paypal because it's in the negative. So i went back to check my paypal and yes you guess it, 13 days after the case was closed and refunded, the amount is once again withheld! This has put a negative amount in my paypal, which means i cannot use my paypal for anything. Checked my email account that is associated with my paypal and i find this :-

"It has come to our attention that you may be the recipient of potentially unauthorised funds. We have initiated an investigation into this event. In the meantime, we have placed a temporary hold on the funds in question until the investigation is complete. This temporary hold will show as a deduction in your available balance. In the meantime, you are free to continue transacting using your PayPal account." <-How can i when it's in the negative?

Bare in mind this refers to the same case that paypal themselves have already closed and credited my account with under the sellers protection! Also in the email they ask to show proof of delivery, address it was sent within 7 days, bascially what i went through 2 weeks previously for a closed case. Confused and frustrated i phone paypal and they couldn't give an answer, nor how long this would go on for, the only thing they could do was forward a notification to HQ (yeah whatever!). By this time i decided to forward a complant to paypal :-

"To Paypal,

I am filling a complaint because of a dispute that is connected to a case that lasted from 3rd July to the 15th July, where upon a buyer's (real name "**** ****") account was closed by eBay due a possible fraudulent account and his funds (£***.**, after paypal fees) to me was withheld on that length of time, where i had to produced proof of delivery via fax (which i did and have phoned paypal to confirm that they have received the fax). The case was finally closed and the funds of £***.** updated and reversed, crediting my paypal account. As the dispute was closed i transfered the funds to my bank account leaving my paypal account at £0.00 and have since then done a couple more trading and paid off all eBay and paypal fees.

On the 28th July (13 days after the case was closed) a "hold" was placed on my paypal account leaving it on a minus £***.**. I have since than won a bid on eBay, but unfortunately cannot pay for the item as my paypal account is in the negative because of the hold which i cannot understand why it was placed as the case was finished and completed on the 15th July! I have contacted the seller of the latest bid i have won to explain why i cannot pay for the item because of the negative credit that is placed without any prior warning for a case that I was a victim to.

So now not only has this put a temperley hold on any futher trading and activity using my paypal account it has also gave me some doubt as to wether to use paypal again as my main source of secure payment. My question is:-

1)How can paypal justify withholding credit that belongs to me after 13 days of a case that has closed?

2)How do i know that funds isn't going to be taken away again in the future?

3)Naturally at this moment i don't feel any security that is suppose to be one of paypals strong points. And ofcourse the final question is, how long is this going to continue before it is absolutely settled?

This is the first time in many years of trading that i have had any problems with paypal, so hopefully my questions are answered for my particular case rather than a general answer that i have already got from the phone calls i have made to paypal.

Thanks"

And what do i get back the following day? The usual copy and paste job from paypal :-

"Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to the temporary hold on the

transaction on your account,

First and foremost Mr *******, I would like to extend my sincerest apologies

for the inconvenience you have experienced in this matter.

Due to data protection reasons we are unable to give you the specific

reason why a payment may be reversed, however it could be one of the

following reasons:

- Funds obtained by fraudulent means

- Stolen credit card details

- Stolen bank account details

- Unauthorised use of a PayPal account

- Buyer's bank denied the transaction

After reviewing the details of the transaction Mr. *******, I can see that you

are eligible for seller protection and you have shipped the item to a

confirmed address.

If you have the tracking information to confirm the delivery of this item,

please reply directly to reversal@paypal.co.uk as soon as possible so that

we may process your cover.

Without tracking information, you may need to contact the buyer directly to

find out what has happened, as it may simply be that their bank denied the

transaction and they will need to process the payment again....blah blah blah"

To which i reply :-

"But I have already been through all this! Why do i have to repeat what i have already done weeks ago? You haven't really answered any of the important questions i have asked. Like i said in the email, i want definate answers, not just what you have sent me, i already know where i stand, hence why i am confused as to why this is still contiuning after 13 days of my refund. What real difference does it make if i send an email to reversal@paypal.co.uk regarding this matter as i have already faxed the tracking number to the confirmed address of the buyer weeks ago, straight to paypal, which as i stated in the email, been confirmed by a paypal representative. This seems like a way for you to buy some time to avoid the real situation im currently in. Please read my email again and answer the questions i have asked.

Once again the tracking number for the parcel i sent via recorded delivery is as follows:-

Tracking number : ********************

Thank you."

And thats the story so far...bascially they decided to withhold the amount for a case that has been closed without any warning whatsoever. The frighten part is they can do this and theres nothing i can do. I mean they can go one step further and close my account and deduct the amount straight from my bank account! This seems like an inside job to me, rather than just a mistake. Imagine if they do this on a regular basis on a few hundred people at a time, think how much interest they can accumilate in the bank in the year. Bare in mind most of the paypal staff are based in India where wages are relatively low and think how tempting it would be for a bad egg to do something like this and it's absolutely out of the control of the account holder. Anyway, maybe im just a bit pee'ed off at this moment but it's so frustration when the only help you can get is someone at the other end saying they don't know why and you just have to wait.

Rant over...for now.

[DJ Wozza]

Keep us posted mate. I hate bureaucratic red tape bs, which is what this is.

I'm glad Paypal don't have my bank account details, though I do more buying then selling on E-Bay.

[sparkystav]

Sounds S*** mate hate that to happen to me.

It was such a good system years ago but cause of the amount of scams going on they seem to be protecting themselves first more and more and stuff the customers.

Hope you get it sorted .

Stav

[Kazi]

Paypal can be right jockeys at time. I feel for ya buddy!

[Steve ( West Mids )]

Sorry to hear this. Unfortunately there are too many scams, and when your protection is whether the other party still has funds in their paypal account it's a no brainer - that is if it's still open.

I won't use eBay now as they won't let me sell withouy paypal. I don't trust paypal I just trust cash, cleared cheques and Bamkers Draft and I know that works. Having been the victim of identity theft I have no intention of using paypal and eBay no longer have my bank details.

[Monster-Mat]

they did something similer to me a year ago

i paid for something, then almost straight away, i get an email saying they have closed the other partys eBay account......

i never got ll the money back, and they say theres nothing they can do.

i asked why did you allow the other person to remove the money from there account, after, YOU (EBAY) closed there account.....

they couldnt answer it, and theres nothing you can do, its ****, i hate eBay, and paypal

[spikes]

hear these things happening a lot ...... try not to use ebay/paypal any more :)

[VVProtocolVV]

they did something similer to me a year ago

i paid for something, then almost straight away, i get an email saying they have closed the other partys ebay account......

i never got ll the money back, and they say theres nothing they can do.

i asked why did you allow the other person to remove the money from there account, after, YOU (EBAY) closed there account.....

they couldnt answer it, and theres nothing you can do, its ****, i hate ebay, and paypal

Yep, i bet it's because they thought they could do that to the buyer that brought my item after closing his account, but later found out they couldn't so decided to deduct the amount from me again. So not only do i lose the item i sent, i also lose the eBay fees and the winning bid, which has a high price tag, hence why it was sent via Royal Mail special delivery (next day). I just can't understand how they can just bring up a case that has already been closed by paypal themselves! Oh another thing, when you have a paypal account and decide to close it, they still keep your bank details. Not sure what the outcome will be, even though the email i recently got says that i am eligible because i sent it to a verifield address as this is the second time for the same case. And theres me thinking im going to put them sideskirts from the buy and sell section of mine into eBay..sod it now, i think i'll keep it. Don't like this waiting game.

[Rob]

if anyone buys with paypal make sure its with a credit card and not a debit card... if they are funny about anything and wont sort it, issue a dispute with the CC company.

[shake]

i hate ebay, and paypal

+1

been screwed once but when its the only way to use eBay easily theres not much anyone can do.

i set up a seperate bank account for eBay and paypal... fingers crossed it doesnt happen again

would a small claims court be able to sort this for you? i think paypal just need some scaring :shruriken:

[VVProtocolVV]

Thats very difficult as they are not govened by banking rules, they have their own set of rules which is bascially like, we can withhold your fund without explanation for any amount of time until investigation is finished, at which point they are the only ones that can decide the outcome. Just like the rule old Bush brought in. If we think you are involved in a terrorist act we can do what we like to you and your possessions, no other explantion needed. There goes your freedom. But thats another story.

[Steve ( West Mids )]

Presumably you have an adrees the package was delivered to ;)

[Scorps01]

Presumably you have an adrees the package was delivered to ;)

If so go around there and cut him a new A** H*** :D

[P4UL T]

Presumably you have an adrees the package was delivered to ;)

If so go around there and cut him a new A** H*** :D

lol

[VVProtocolVV]

Ah, i like your thinking lol.

[Paradroid]

Sorry to hear of the hassle you had, that would make me really mad. I'd be without sleep over something as unfair as that.

What really annoys me about PayPal is all that "payment protection" ######## they pretend you get.

Even my mum got done by PayPal when she bought some antique glass off eBay, the item never arrived so she tried to claim off PayPal, and guess what, they told her to go away.

I've got wound up with them in the past, they got me to upgrade to a Premier account on some weird technicality a few years ago, and have been ripping me off with charges ever since. Then I downgraded to a personal account and they still charged me for a transaction. When I queried it, they said it was because the buyer had paid with a credit card. Yet I had no way of knowing this through any of the transaction detail screens.

eBay and PayPal really suck. I just wish there was an alternative, but apart from social areas like this forum there isn't anything that I know of.

[Rory]

unless anything has changed since it happened to me, the fact that u provided the tracking detils again shud mean u get ur money back again, just keep hole of the tracking details of everything incase it happens again, its no excuse for eBay and/or paypal to mess u about tho, they did it to me, its nothing more than a really irritating inconveniance

I claimed, then it was suddenly reversed again, and they requested tracking info, and I had lost it in that time (as the case had closed, I didn't think i'd need it, more fool me) and I asked for the original email I had send that included the details I had previously sent, and they didn't wanna send it back to me for data protection, so I emailed reminding them it was my data, going to the email address that it came from, and they sent it

which did eventually lead to me gettin the cash, thankfully, but it was just so long-winded, and not necessary

[treats]

If this was me and it was a large sum of money, i'd take the matter into my own hands and be heading to the address with with the boys, either to collect the money, item or maybe both :-)

What area did the item get posted to? Maybe someone lives close?

[VVProtocolVV]

I best not post the address, as i don't think the admin will take that very kindly.

Update.

After few more emails/phone calls i got told to wait 10 days, it's about that now and guess what, they closed the case and decided to deduct the money from my account and credited back to the buyer whos account was closed by eBay?!?!? Eitherway im in the minus. WTF, so another call to paypal. Same thing again, they don't understand why it was reopened again and forwarded me to another department, possibly the resolution center. Anyway, explained to them the history and they said it was found that i couldn't produce the reciept of delivery etc, WTF WTF!! I told them the case was closed on the 15th July and i had faxed them back in 11 July and they confirmed that they have recevied the fax back on the 11 July, hence why the case was found in my favour the first time round (very similar to Rory's case this...). If i didn't fax them the delivery details as proof they would have closed the case back in 15th July and deducted the money from me and thats that. They said that they have no record of the fax i sent them, which when i started to lose it. Told them that it's not my fault that they didn't put it on record and attatched it to the case the first time round and re-opening the case again to find that i have no proof. Anyone with half a brain cell would look at the history of the dispute and won't understand why it was re-opened after finding me in favour the first time round. If noone at paypal could explain why it was re-opened then how can they re-opening it and by whos order?!!

But anyway i still have the reciept and again fax it right away today morning and phoned paypal (again) to make sure they attach it to the case once the fax is their hands and to put a note in the resolution center. Yes i did put down the case number/my user name/date of fax and also a note about this case and to make sure they attach it to the case etc etc...feels like im telling them their job! But what im afraid of is now i been told to wait 10 days and now the 10 days is over and the case was found to be against me the second time, they will say the second fax i sent them is too late and the seller protection policy is not valid or other lame excuse. I knew they were trying to buy their time. Talk about inconvenience they have caused. TBH treats, If this was only a few quid i would probably say sod it, but it's in the £100's. What also gets me is the fact that noone can actually make any decisions that i speak to and everytime i phone it's a different person which only reads what the notes are put down by the other person that has dealt with me before, so i can only assume they have noted down what have been discussed and not just them tapping the on the desk and saying they have noted it down for future reference.

[VVProtocolVV]

Update.....

Still waiting, faxed them on the 9th Aug of the reciept and a summary of what is happening, phoned up on the 11th Aug to ask why is nothing happening in the resolution case. Got to the point where they had to temp close my paypal account so i can attach the scan of the fax i had sent them (stupid i know). Phoned up today to double, double check that they have the attachement, which they said they have, but i've heard that before and demanded that a note is placed in the resolution case about receving my attachment/or fax. They said it's not normally possible for a case to be reopened again by the buyer (when the case has been raised and closed to find in favour of seller (me). After being on hold for a total of 20 minutes, so the paypal rep can read through the case (over a months worth) he said that it will take few more days for them to make a decision. But anyway, i know wozza wants to lock this thread, but i think it's good to share my experience (wether it's good or bad) so other users here (and im sure many of you use eBay to buy and sell items) to be aware of what can happen when using in conjunction with paypal. Don't get me wrong ebay/paypal are still a very valuable tools to use for buying/selling, but i mean, when this sort of thing happens, what can the average user do about it? (play the waiting game..)

story continues....

[84Stoney]

AAARRRRRHHHHH.

**** PayPal doin my head in too!!!!

[DJ Wozza]

.... anyway, i know wozza wants to lock this thread

erm maybe I'm missing something here ?

I only said this :-

Keep us posted mate. I hate bureaucratic red tape bs, which is what this is.

[VVProtocolVV]

ah, cos i thought you might see no end to this lol. Im sure i'll still be updating this into next week lol

[VVProtocolVV]

God almighty, just been looking at my email and i see this from paypal, from yesterday..

Dear Mr I will take you for a ride,

As you know, we have been reviewing the transaction detailed below. Our

investigation is now complete. This payment has been completed because the

documentation requested was not provided within the timeframe.No further

action wil be taken.

We appreciate your cooperation, this inquiry is closed.

Note the spelling mistake in the word "wil", this probably means it was typed by a real person whos looked into my case and not just some copy and paste job or bot. This is where i ask myself...what do you mean within timeframe?!?!!? I've faxed them 2 times and attached an image of the fax i sent them throughout the whole month this has been going on. Yet they can turn round and say not within timeframe. Think im getting absolutely nowhere and fighting a losing battle as they say they have not recevied my fax first time round, which they must have otherwise they would not have found it in my favour when the case was first open. so as a summary...

03-07-08 - item is bought from me and paid into paypal

04-07-08 - item is sent via royal mail special delivery to buyers comfirmed address. Got email from eBay to say the buyers account has been closed.

05-07-08 - paypal withholds the funds in my paypal account for investigation. Provided Royal Mail tracking number and all details relating the case to paypal and have received confirmation of this.

10-07-08 - Paypal sends mail to ask me to fax the proof of delivery to them.

11-07-08 - Faxed Royal Mail delivery reciept to paypal together with case number and my user ID etc. Also asked for them to confirm this.

14-07-08 - Mail from paypal to confirm they have the tracking number and are still investigating the case.

15-07-08 - Paypal refunds me amount that's been withheld and the case is closed.

16-07-08 - The funds relating to the case is transfered to my bank account and my paypal account is used per usual.

28-07-08 - Case is re-opened again and the amount deducted from my paypal account leaving it in the red. Emailed and phoned paypal to ask why.

29-07-08 - Phoned paypal to find out situation.

30-07-08 - Email from paypal to ask to provide tracking number and i am eligible for seller protection as i have shipped the item to a confirmed address details. Also filed a complaint to paypal as to why the case is re-opend and are asking for proof of delivery again as they should already have this in their file.

31-07-08 - Provided tracking number to paypal again.

01-08-08 - email from paypal to wait for futher 10 days for their investigation.

08-08-08 - Case is closed and funds deducted from me and refunded to the buyer. Phoned paypal and they said it's because no proof of delivery was provided!?!? Asked to provide fax again.

09-08-08 - Faxed paypal again with short description of the case and royal mail delivery reciept. Also phoned paypal of the current situation.

11-08-08 - Phoned paypal to confirm the fax and also attached a scan of the fax i had sent them and attached to the case. Email from payal to confirm the attachment of file.

14-08-08 - Nothing was in noted in resolution centre so called up and they confirmed they have the attachement.

15-08-08 - Email from paypal to say case is closed. This payment has been completed because the documentation requested was not provided within the timeframe. No further action will be taken.

16-08-08 - ?

...i have done everything by the book that i can at my end, faxed them the proof 3 times, phoned and emailed them to confirm it each time and they said they have it and i just have to wait and it comes to this...

[Fargo]

time to go legal, send the lot again via recorded delivery, issuing a 'timeframe' to give your money back, else small claims court... then take em to court and win it.