Fuel Question

[bluenose1940]

I have posted a number of times regarding the EGR Valve on the 220d and, coupled with this, my subsequent change of direction in regard to the fuel that I buy. I was pointed in what I now regard as 'the right direction' by the valued comments of other members and now ony use Shell diesel in my car (It doesn't have to be Shell, just NOT supermarket fuel) along with Bardahl B10 Fuel Additive at each fill-up (doesn't have to be B10, there are other proven additives available - see the many comments on this forum) This action has shown to be very beneficial, the car runs extremely smoothly, the acceleration is great and so is mpg return.

As I am now looking around to buy an IS250, I am wondering if any 250 owners have followed a similar tack with regard to their purchase of petrol, and do they use any additives at each fill-up and if so, what do they recommend?

[normski2]

There is a petrol additive BG44K (made by the same people that make BG244 for diesel fuel) that you can use to help get rid of carbon build up.

Take a peek here

http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/news/category/bg-44k-for-petrol/

[Tango]

It used to be the case that all the motor fuel used to conform to the British Standard and the requirement to meet that standard was enshrined in law. Unfortunately this no longer applies and the fuel must now only meet the environmental controls laid down in European and, subsequently, UK legislation.

Currently the standards to which fuel is mixed is also being influenced by British and European mandatory requirements for the incorporation of biofuel components. At the moment fuel will typically contain 5% biofuel components which too have specifications which are subject to evolution as both the motor and fuels sectors come to terms with biofuel blends. The intention in Europe is that the proportions of biofuels components will increase from the present 5 % to 10 %, so the composition and quality of fuels can and will vary.

Some people will argue that there is no difference in quality as all road tankers, regardless of the brand of fuel, fill up from the same refineries. However, this 'standard/ fuel will then have additives included by the different brands, so depending on type and quantity of additives, high performance base fuels cost more and give greater protection or performance. That is why some oil companies have produced higher quality fuels which they sell at a premium. Basically the old rules apply and you generally only get what you pay for, and if fuel is being sold very much cheaper then you have to ask yourself why.

Personally I wouldn't dream of putting additives in my own tank as I'm certainly not qualified to determine whether it' makes any difference and is therefore worth the money, and I can't be swayed by any published bumf unless it's from a completely independent source. I used to use either BP Ultimate 102, or Tesco 99 in my IS250 SE-L, so was quite pleased when I saw the results of a 'Whatcar' test which listed BP Ultimate as having best performance gains and Tesco 99 Octane as best gains for price, with Shell V Power lagging behind in third place . http://www.whatcar.c...ce-fuels/226642

With the IS-F I just use 95 Octane as any perfomance benefits on the road from enhanced premium fuels is both a waste of money and unnecessary.

[noby76]

With the IS-F I just use 95 Octane as any perfomance benefits on the road from enhanced premium fuels is both a waste of money and unnecessary.

definatley not waste of money and unnecessary.. yes all petrol car engines sold in UK are desinged to run on 95ron fuels but you forget to mention higher octane fuels like Shell 99, Esso 97, or BP 97 ultimates containe cleaning additives aswell which cleans , valves, injectors, fuel system, and cylinders as a whole helping the car perform smoothly. a clean engine = less stress on friction parts which = less carbon build up which = better mpg and smooth operation. so although Turbo charged engines only get to benefit from slight horsepower gain from using high octane fuels, Naturally aspirated engines can gian from engine cleaning agents in these fuels be it petrol or diesel... my advice to people will be run your cars on high octane at least for a whole month every now and again to clean the engine and always stick to Shell, Esso(Mobil), BP, Texaco and Total as these companies know thier stuffs when it comes to fuel additives. No matter how cheap supermarkets sell thier fuels i never go near them would rather pay the 0.3 p more for good fuel.

[fjcfarrar]

Over many years and many cars I have found the single important factor in choosing petrols is to simply use a trusted supplier that sells a regular large volume so that what you buy is clean, the fuel as described and not water, sediment or contamination from forecourt tanks or what is left after evaporation of the more volatile components. Personally, I have never found the slightest genuinely provable difference in performance or mpg with different fuel-types or brands. Most engine ECUs automatically and effectively adjust parameters to compensate for variations in RON ratings between brands etc. to make this increasingly less likely.

The clever additives in the "high-end" specialist (expensive) fuels tend to need clever equipment to substantiate the very minor improvements claimed underneath all the hype to persuade you to pay more. They might even be better for engines in a way that only shows right at the very end of their life; but at least are pretty sure to be harmless.

As to the laying down of carbon, this is really down to how efficiently the engine burns the stuff which has radically improved over the years so that it just doesn't build up significantly now. Those with long memories will recall that at one time it was necessary as a matter of routine to decoke engines. With petrol engines, this is definitely no longer the case. With diesel, maybe another matter perhaps because of the waxy solids in the heavier fractions of the original oil.

As far as I can see, cheaper petrol is fine and not at all like cheap own-brands containing beans that Heinz won't buy.

Both with my IS200LE and now ISF, I choose to buy from a nearby busy Sainsburys and have never had any issues. The choice is not for technical reasons or brand loyalty or even price but because it is convenient. My second choice would be an even busier Tesco forecourt which could as easily be my first choice if it wasn't less convenient. I don't choose the main petrol brands both because they are inconveniently situated locally and primarily because they sell negligible amounts of fuel. Also Supermarkets are very careful with their fuels because to do otherwise drives people to also do their food-shopping with the competition.

[Tango]

Usually the higher the turnover the better to ensure the fuel you put in your tank hasn't been stored for too long. Even higher octanes left in the tank in the car will deteriorate (not usually a problem with the IS-F ) and now we have fairly high percentages of bio ethanol in the fuel there's the absorption of water from the atmosphere that will occur due to the ethanol being hygroscopic..

Supermarket fuels will tend to have a higher turnover than most independant retailers so I tend to use their petrol. I worked for BP for quite a few years, which is the only reason I default to their fuels if a supermarket station isn't readily available.

Sorry Noby but I disagree with you. I stand by what I said in that any marginal benefit that additives could make to the IS-F for everyday road use is unecessary and a waste of money. Running at continuous high temperatures and load may benefit from the additives, but not something the IS-F suffers from in daily use.

[noby76]

not trying to get anyone to agree with me Tango. I personally use only Shell or Esso religiously in all my previous and current vehicles so i tend to stick with branded fuels. Same scenario applies to engine oils some people say oil is oil which in a way they are right but i disagree. Oils like Castrol Mobil or Shell have been engineered and refined to last a minimum of around 7 - 10,000 miles before they start breaking apart due to 'again' additives which keeps them going for longer but that cant be said for other brands ..so you might be right in saying using say a higher octane fuel in the ISF wont have any significant benefit to the performance being a naturally aspirated but those additives will certainly do your engine good by keeping it clean all year round. its all down to the engineering which goes into a product be it an engine, oil, tyres or fuel so i stick to my original post about using good high octane fuels every now and again if you want to protect your engine.

Stick some budget tyres on your ISF and see if your car will perform or handle like when it is wearing Bridgestones, Toyo's, Pirellis or Michelines!! see where I am coming from?

Same way tyres is not just tyres as they differ in the engineering which goes into it tho they all made from rubber that science also goes into fuels.

Fuel is not just fuel they also do differ based on their engineering (additives) and mass

[fjcfarrar]

not trying to get anyone to agree with me Tango. I personally use only Shell or Esso religiously in all my previous and current vehicles so i tend to stick with branded fuels. Same scenario applies to engine oils some people say oil is oil which in a way they are right but i disagree. Oils like Castrol Mobil or Shell have been engineered and refined to last a minimum of around 7 - 10,000 miles before they start breaking apart due to 'again' additives which keeps them going for longer but that cant be said for other brands ..so you might be right in saying using say a higher octane fuel in the ISF wont have any significant benefit to the performance being a naturally aspirated but those additives will certainly do your engine good by keeping it clean all year round. its all down to the engineering which goes into a product be it an engine, oil, tyres or fuel so i stick to my original post about using good high octane fuels every now and again if you want to protect your engine.

Stick some budget tyres on your ISF and see if your car will perform or handle like when it is wearing Bridgestones, Toyo's, Pirellis or Michelines!! see where I am coming from?

Same way tyres is not just tyres as they differ in the engineering which goes into it tho they all made from rubber that science also goes into fuels.

Fuel is not just fuel they also do differ based on their engineering (additives) and mass

There is some truth in what you say but with oils and tyres there is a huge range of what can be done to alter their characteristics with new materials and technologies although less so with oils than tyres. Different oils can vary from offering more protection than is needed to many times more than is needed and this can certainly be significant in engines which are highly stressed and/or used hard. But Petrol is a different matter. It is a more basic material and not a lot can be done with it. The most significant change/additive that has ever been applied to it was the now defunct addition of lead. No modern additive or reformulation has so far had anything like as much influence, and generally speaking can now just tinker around the edges.Yes, maybe some can keep the engine cleaner - but I would suggest that nearer to clinical cleanliness than with standard fuels has no useful effect. Others have subtle effects on combustion that benefit some engine-types, do nothing for others & reduce effecieny for a few. For the average engine the effects are barely detectable; so whether an enhancement or otherwise hardly matters. The really important issue is that we are all free to make our own choices and one day they could include a brand or type that really did offer a significant advantage. For me, until then, I will stick to my handy Sainsburys & others will choose differently.

[noby76]

yes we all free to choose which ever fuel we want to fill our cars with and am not trying to convert anyone here. but have a read about these two articles for some thought.

http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supermarket-vs-branded-fuels/#.T-Ww3lL4IsY

http://www.lambdapower.co.uk/technotes/fuel_contamination.asp

http://www.injection-correction.co.uk/cheap_fuel.html

branded fuels are not sold a couple of pence more than supermarket ones for nothing. there is a reason why supermarket ones are slightly cheaper mate!

[fjcfarrar]

yes we all free to choose which ever fuel we want to fill our cars with and am not trying to convert anyone here. but have a read about these two articles for some thought.

http://www.simplemot...s/#.T-Ww3lL4IsY

http://www.lambdapow...ntamination.asp

http://www.injection...cheap_fuel.html

branded fuels are not sold a couple of pence more than supermarket ones for nothing. there is a reason why supermarket ones are slightly cheaper mate!

I think the reasons major brands sell petrol for more (a lot more than a couple of pence more round here) are twofold.

(1) Because they can

(2) It is their only income-stream and they really struggle to sell enough fuel to keep going.

The articles you quote are not exactly substantiated or unbiassed although I am sure they are true but tend to strike fear of problems that don't generally apply - similar to statements that certain contaminants in our water supply can cause sterility or rot your teeth. They could; but they don't or so rarely that the causal connection is unclear.

The case for Premium Fuels is not proven; nor equally is it for Cheap Fuels. With such cases & arguments, this usually means that there isn't enough of a difference to matter and it is just down to the preference we are all entitled to have.

[mikeyv]

Shell and Esso are same price range as Tesco, asda, and Morrisons round here.

I get three emails a week from petrolprices.com, and there's never more than a penny a litre between them, and they seem to take it in turns to be cheapest.

I just fill up wherever is convenient at the time, with no noticeable difference in performance, or reliability.

[bluenose1940]

Some really interesting thoughts have been put forward on this topic and i thank everyone for their input. i didn't think for a moment that it would generate such a response, I was expecting something along the lines of " Yea I use ABC123, and get great results" Anyways it has made for good reading so i've decided not to buy todays paper, I'm going to read all of this again!

Thanks to all again.

[Valkirk]

I find that the prices generally mimic any other nearby stations anyway, however I do tend to stay away from Supermarket petrol probably deterred by the memory of Tesco screwing up peoples cars:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/mar/06/oilandpetrol.transportintheuk

Even more shocking is remembering that petrol was 88p 5 years ago :(

[fjcfarrar]

I find that the prices generally mimic any other nearby stations anyway, however I do tend to stay away from Supermarket petrol probably deterred by the memory of Tesco screwing up peoples cars:

http://www.guardian....ransportintheuk

Even more shocking is remembering that petrol was 88p 5 years ago :(

Off topic.

I started driving when I was very, very young and my first gallon after passing the test was 11.5p inc Tax (newly arrived cut-price Jet Petrol - the company, not stuff for aeroplanes) - even more to think about because that was higher against the cost of living than it is now, and really slow lousy 1litre cars then rarely managed as good as 30mpg.

Even more to think about - my first Insurance Premium was £2.75 (3rd Party, Fire & Theft) for a whole year for a truly dreadful, rotted 10 year old 1172 cc Hillman Minx. It went down when I got to be 18! Then went up to £4 when I got a "tuned" Ford V8 Pilot.......

[noby76]

I find that the prices generally mimic any other nearby stations anyway, however I do tend to stay away from Supermarket petrol probably deterred by the memory of Tesco screwing up peoples cars:

http://www.guardian....ransportintheuk

Even more shocking is remembering that petrol was 88p 5 years ago :(

Off topic.

I started driving when I was very, very young and my first gallon after passing the test was 11.5p inc Tax (newly arrived cut-price Jet Petrol - the company, not stuff for aeroplanes) - even more to think about because that was higher against the cost of living than it is now, and really slow lousy 1litre cars then rarely managed as good as 30mpg.

Even more to think about - my first Insurance Premium was £2.75 (3rd Party, Fire & Theft) for a whole year for a truly dreadful, rotted 10 year old 1172 cc Hillman Minx. It went down when I got to be 18! Then went up to £4 when I got a "tuned" Ford V8 Pilot.......

Geez sounds like the 1930's to me !! just messing about

[ColinBarber]

Even more shocking is remembering that petrol was 88p 5 years ago :(

I still get the same ppm rate from my company now as I did then, if I take the RX then I'm out of pocket. :tsktsk:

[Valkirk]

I started driving when I was very, very young and my first gallon after passing the test was 11.5p inc Tax (newly arrived cut-price Jet Petrol - the company, not stuff for aeroplanes) - even more to think about because that was higher against the cost of living than it is now, and really slow lousy 1litre cars then rarely managed as good as 30mpg.

Even more to think about - my first Insurance Premium was £2.75 (3rd Party, Fire & Theft) for a whole year for a truly dreadful, rotted 10 year old 1172 cc Hillman Minx. It went down when I got to be 18! Then went up to £4 when I got a "tuned" Ford V8 Pilot.......

Thanks for making me feel young again :) don't feel so bad now, was 40p when I started driving ;)

[dave1]

I think it was about 30p/gallon (6.6p/ltr) when I started

[aly-g]

5 bob a gallon when I started driving ! If you don't know how much that is ask your grandad......

Allan

[ronsis]

Can I just remind people that if you are in the south east... All fuels are the same.. Additives are a hit or miss affair because at the time of filling you will get what they have.!!! Bp are now filling from 5 different sights none of which are owned by bp and this also includes the 99 Ron in some cases. So you pays your money and hope for the best.

As I've said before Esso are the only supplier down here with their own supply from their own refinery with their own additives!!!

Asda in East London load ONLY Esso fuel so you ca n get decent stuff if you want... Whether you get Esso additive ? I couldn't say.

Shell have had several dodgy batches of vpower recently due to 3 rd party suppliers getting it wrong resulting in thousands of litres being uplifted from major sites because of water and other contaminants being found...

The big companies will never admit to this... No I don't work for shell Esso or whoever.... I'm in a distribution plant next to the qe2 bridge...

Believe me... Every bu66er is loading from here... It travels as far as Birmingham and just beyond.. The southwest as far as Dorset..and up to Lincolnshire. Personaly I'm still on Esso with ok results...

[Jamesf1]

Ive only had my 250 a few weeks and so far only filled up on Tesco unleaded - its near my house and cheap! For this engine though Im going to switch back to vpower as I always ran my Civic Type R on it and my 325 with no issues and a good improvement on performance and economy.