Paper Qualifications - Are They A Problem In All Industries?

[aido]

I work in the IT sector, and we have a problem with a lot of people that gained what we class as 'paper qualifications' - essentially just enough studying is done to ensure that an exam can be passed, and then the individual can work their way into a role in which they have no prior experience, and it shows!

I haven't bothered sitting any exams since the Microsoft NT4 MCSE days (I'm an MCSE+I) as what was going on back then watered it down for me, I knew people that were getting these qualifications via dodgy means and in all honesty they were *****, they didn't have a clue technically!

The market does seem to have improved a little but the value of a qualification does seem to have been watered down, I was only reading this morning that New Zealand have started recognising these IT qualifications again because they have a severe skills shortage so they can't just go on experience any more.

It just got me wondering is this a problem in other industry sectors or is it something that primarily affects IT?

I remember a couple of years back I attended a seminar for a day on some software and a week later I received a certificate saying I was certified on that application - seems a bit crazy as they don't actually test your knowledge at all!

[Monster-Mat]

experiance counts for alot, but everyone has to start gaining it somewhere

[aido]

Yeah I know what you mean mate, this was a good way to get your foot in the door, but we had people that we literally had to give up on as they couldn't do the job, as they were a liability to us!

It's a lot easier to cause massive problems on a server infrastructure than it is to sit and fix them!

One guy we had was a walking disaster, he was moved from post to post as he kept making mistakes on a huge scale, not actually sure what happened to him in the end!

[simon k]

i work in the construction industry [joinery] i now run my own buisness when i started out which seems a long time ago qualifications were everything, these days i think people are looking for experience over qualifications, as an employer i would always give a job to somebody who has lets say 3 years experience rather than somebody who has been at college for 3 years to gain a qualfication.

i have got 17 staff and would say that only 4 of them have got any qualifications in joinery and these are the oldest members of staff

[Rob]

same in my industry which is unfortunate as its playing with life on a large scale - the safe guards are there but it easily fails if the safe guard ie the licenced person is incompetent. I like to see each stage of the job at all the critical points and i make this clear before I issue a job to someone - if they complete the job and i didnt see the stages then they have to take it all apart again.

There has been a watering down of the system in the past years - something which I dont like at all eg in the old days in the UK you had to sit the multi choice and written exams then go for an interview assesment with a surveyor from the aviation authority then they decide and can see if ur a numpty.

NOW with joint european setup it is all multi choice and no interview so you can have no practical skill and be as slack as u want and still get a licence - very worrying! But fortunatly these type of people get noticed very quickly and measures are taken to re-educate. Also it is a shame that not all the authorities have the same standards ( in theory they should) - the UK being one of the strictist with regards to license issue.

[Sagitar]

I work in the IT sector, and we have a problem with a lot of people that gained what we class as 'paper qualifications' - essentially just enough studying is done to ensure that an exam can be passed, and then the individual can work their way into a role in which they have no prior experience, and it shows!

I haven't bothered sitting any exams since the Microsoft NT4 MCSE days (I'm an MCSE+I) as what was going on back then watered it down for me, I knew people that were getting these qualifications via dodgy means and in all honesty they were *****, they didn't have a clue technically!

The market does seem to have improved a little but the value of a qualification does seem to have been watered down, I was only reading this morning that New Zealand have started recognising these IT qualifications again because they have a severe skills shortage so they can't just go on experience any more.

It just got me wondering is this a problem in other industry sectors or is it something that primarily affects IT?

I remember a couple of years back I attended a seminar for a day on some software and a week later I received a certificate saying I was certified on that application - seems a bit crazy as they don't actually test your knowledge at all!

It depends what you mean by qualifications. I see lots of adverts for courses that look like confidence tricks. "Take our course and we guarantee that employers will beat a path to your door" - yeh right.

On the other hand, my daughter, who designs real-time systems for secure military communications, has a first degree in physical electronics, a post gradute diploma in IT and regularly attends updating courses concerned e.g. with the design environment and tools. It's difficult to see how anyone can stay at the leading edge of a fast developing technology without more or less continual training and updating.

[Anees]

I work in the IT sector, and we have a problem with a lot of people that gained what we class as 'paper qualifications' - essentially just enough studying is done to ensure that an exam can be passed, and then the individual can work their way into a role in which they have no prior experience, and it shows!

I haven't bothered sitting any exams since the Microsoft NT4 MCSE days (I'm an MCSE+I) as what was going on back then watered it down for me, I knew people that were getting these qualifications via dodgy means and in all honesty they were *****, they didn't have a clue technically!

The market does seem to have improved a little but the value of a qualification does seem to have been watered down, I was only reading this morning that New Zealand have started recognising these IT qualifications again because they have a severe skills shortage so they can't just go on experience any more.

It just got me wondering is this a problem in other industry sectors or is it something that primarily affects IT?

I remember a couple of years back I attended a seminar for a day on some software and a week later I received a certificate saying I was certified on that application - seems a bit crazy as they don't actually test your knowledge at all!

Aido I agree with you 100%!

I went on a family holiday to Pakistan a few years back and a guy I met had the A+, MCSE and CCNA certifications, yet he didn't have a clue!!! He couldn't even turn on his family PC!! I was :o :o :o

He was proudly telling me how you can pay some local guy that will go to the local test centre and take the exams for you if you pay him a certain amount of Rupees. I am not exaggerating here - he just wanted to get to the UK/US to get work and was seriously clueless.

Then a met a student that was studying for CCNA and all he said to be was that if I wanted the qualification I can pay a few throusand Rupees to his mate to site the exam!

I think (hope) its alot stricter now with Photo IDs etc, but in some places even the test centres are not quite legit.

Just worrying, because it costs us a fortune to get accredited/certified in the UK.

[tdiplc]

I know what you mean. I have known very highly qualified guys to be absolutely useless in the real world, and guys with no formal qualifications to have an awesome production rate.

Having said that, in our industry there is visible value to worthy qualifications. One of the qualifications that has a high value is the Automotive Technician Accreditation. The value is maintained because the majority of candidates (over 70%) fail the examination which makes the successful candidates part of an elite few.

I was at a Motorsport Industry Association function a couple of weeks ago to support a new Govt funded initiative called the "Motorsport Academy" which is a training programme. I was fortunate to meet the head of Race Car Engineering for McLaren F1. He was telling me that they would not entertain employing any graduates from any of the current "motorsport" orientated university courses, because they are rubbish (in his words).

I would imagine that anyone within their chosen profession must know the value of the certifications and accreditations, and whether they are worthy or are just belly buttons.

[lutonmatt]

i did all my qualifications a couple of years ago but nearly at the same time there was the bloke i work with doing the full time course (i was doing a day release ) and i now so much more then him about doing the job and doing it quicker and better he my now how it works and how to repair some more bits then i do but as tdi can tell you more garages replace bits then fix them as is quicker and cheaper

but when i get my own garage i would be happer taking on some one that can do the job then someone that can write about it

[ColinBarber]

I went on a family holiday to Pakistan a few years back and a guy I met had the A+, MCSE and CCNA certifications, yet he didn't have a clue!!! He couldn't even turn on his family PC!! I was :o :o :o

He was proudly telling me how you can pay some local guy that will go to the local test centre and take the exams for you if you pay him a certain amount of Rupees. I am not exaggerating here - he just wanted to get to the UK/US to get work and was seriously clueless.

Then a met a student that was studying for CCNA and all he said to be was that if I wanted the qualification I can pay a few throusand Rupees to his mate to site the exam!

I think (hope) its alot stricter now with Photo IDs etc, but in some places even the test centres are not quite legit.

Just worrying, because it costs us a fortune to get accredited/certified in the UK.

I've interviewed a few CCNA and CCNP candidates recently who haven't got a clue and must have either used the various exam answer sites or somebody else sat the exam. We ask difficult technical questions and make them perform a test in the interview to verify their knowledge.

[aido]

Colin, is it the CCIE qualification that requires actual lab work completing to a certain degree before you can obtain that qualification?

I've got the CCNA material at home but never really did much with it, we've always had separate groups that look after the network everywhere but it's always nice to have a bit of info on everything that's affecting your infrastructure :)

[IanCornwall]

I have come up through engineering the old fashioned way

I did a 5 year apprenticeship

From there I have got 2 degrees and can call myself a doctor

I have been on so many courses with RAF and NATO and civi street I can't count them all

I have so many damn certificates I could paper my walls with them

But in my opinion the only one that actually means I can do the job is the old style apprenticeship, with old style learning

I am qualified to assess NVQ to level 5, assess the assessors and double check the assessors assessors, and I can honestly say that compared to a real apprenticeship, any NVQ is a very poor comparison

NVQ in the lecturing trade is known as "not very qualified"

I know a lot of people have had no choice with what is available and they have done their best to get their achievements, but just think of what they could have achieved with a real opportunity to learn from people who were best suited to teach them

I left lecturing for 1 reason, I got so frustrated at having to achieve a balance sheet, and shift bodies through the system to meet "targets of achievement" knowing that under the NVQ modern apprenticeship route, only a very very small percentage of those that passed had a chance of realising their potential, this is so unfair to their employers and unfair to the lecturers, but most of all to those with some gift that wanted to learn and we werent allowed to teach them as we wanted

I am reminded of a sign in the lecturers rest room

a year ago I couldn't even spell enjineir

Now I is one

It is such a waste of our youths skills that we cannot return to the old days

[ColinBarber]

Colin, is it the CCIE qualification that requires actual lab work completing to a certain degree before you can obtain that qualification?

I've got the CCNA material at home but never really did much with it, we've always had separate groups that look after the network everywhere but it's always nice to have a bit of info on everything that's affecting your infrastructure :)

Yes the Cisco CCIE (and the top two Juniper certs) make you sit an 8 hour lab. You have to know what you are doing to get those certs.

The CCNA and CCNP are still good certs. and Cisco keep adding more simulations within the exam rather than just multiple choice questions to make it more difficult to pass without the required knowledge.

[Continunity]

Hi Guys,

I have found that getting qualifications a nesacery evil.. being young no one seems to expect me to know my way around an AD domain, or the finer parts group policy, so if i can produce a transcript that shows that i have taken and pased x,y,z i find it easier.

Maybee that will change now i have got some experience with some good companies on my CV.

[peter026]

My trade still has the old fashioned apprenticeship......6 months training for a forging certificate, and then 4 years apprenticeship, with a written, practical and then oral exam, if you fail you may only retake once.

[eXOBeX]

6 months for forging a certificate? That's a bit steep!

Oh no, misread it, sorry! ;)