Religion

[Fever]

Spot on - each to their own....... and leave it at that.

I couldn't agree more, however, a lot of people aren't happy with that and try to hard to impress their beliefs and ways on other people/communities...thats where it goes wrong!

I guess I'm like Paul and a few others here, I have no religion and choose to believe what I wish, but I do have full respect for others and the religions they choose to follow! But what ever people choose should be for them and not to effect others that wish for something different!

[Fargo]

indeed..

also i'd like to add that Religion is not the root of ALL evil..

[javadude]

try to hard to impress their beliefs and ways on other people/communities...thats where it goes wrong

If people are forced to comply with a religion then I couldn't agree more.

Providing information on your beliefs so that others can make up their own mind is different though.

[Fargo]

i think that is the crux of it Chris

[StainlessSteelRat]

I believe in G.O.D. I just think he's a ****.

Groceries on Demand.

S.

;-)

[danny]

Spot on - each to their own....... and leave it at that.

I couldn't agree more, however, a lot of people aren't happy with that and try to hard to impress their beliefs and ways on other people/communities...thats where it goes wrong!

I guess I'm like Paul and a few others here, I have no religion and choose to believe what I wish, but I do have full respect for others and the religions they choose to follow! But what ever people choose should be for them and not to effect others that wish for something different!

Personally I agree entirely; unfortunatly many churches do not. I don't know about Islam but the Christian faiths are actively encouraged to evangalise (Peter, I believe) therefore as a 'true' follower its your duty to 'encourage others to your way of thinking'.

To some minds it is a fairly small step to start knocking on doors (Witnesses) or possibly murdering everyone who disagrees (Crusaders and Inquisitors).

There needs to be a seperation of church from religion - and politics.

[javadude]

knocking on doors (Witnesses)

Yea - annoys me too. You're never going to convert anyone on the doorstep. (By the way the Witnesses have different beliefs to Christians.)

'encourage others to your way of thinking'.

Or "go into all the world and preach the good news" to quote the man himself. Religion isn't a hobby. It's not just something to improve your life and fill your time with. It decides what happens to you when you die - if you care. The different religions have conflicting beliefs on what you do to get to heaven so they can't all be true. I believe the only way that you'll get to heaven is by believing in J.esus. If I'm right and I never told you then you're not going to be very impressed with me when you're judged by G.od and he kicks you out. But it's your choice - I just present the facts when such discussions arise and I quite understand that you may want to ignore me or vehmently disagree with me. That's fine but at least I've done my bit. :)

[nilpoints]

Certain people would say that the basis for religion is twofold:-

1. A means of understanding and giving "logic" to what is currently unexplainable. For example, several hundred years ago certain people would ask: "Why does the sun rise?". The answer would be "*** does it". Now we know why the sun appears to rise we no longer say "*** does it". However, we are not sure why it is there so we say "*** does it". If at the dawn of human consciousness human knowledge of the world was a pinprick in a curtain of night, all that was darkness was explained by saying "That is ***'s doing". As, over the millenia, the pinprick has grown to a detailed painting surrounded by darkness, less is attributed directly to *** but the "unexplainable" remains so.

As organisms with a limited lifespan it is incomprehensible that our bodies are all that we are (with no spirit other than a series of electrical impulses in our head) and that following our death there is nothing. Consequently, religion is a means of explaining "life" and offering hope.

2. A means of controlling society. In days past and presently in certain countries, the chances of being convicted of a "morally obscene" crime such as murder (see point 1) were slim. Consequently, society (and in particular its leaders and controllers) used the concept of a "final judgment" in which all "crimes" are punished. This allowed society to exercise control over its citizens when it had no physical way of establishing the same level of control.

This is similar in terms of war. In most wars, the soldiers (and citizens generally) are told the war is a "moral" (i.e. religious) war in ***'s name and that death in "***'s Service" leads to eternal happiness in the afterlife. Otherwise few people would be willing to go "over the top" if they thought that *** had anything to do with it.

In terms of the point, does religion cause war. The answer is yes if religion is seen for what it is and distinguished from spirituality. Religion is a set of rules established by a society to govern its populace. Spirituality is a more "core" set of beliefs and values which most of humanity holds dear which does not cause war.

Islam and Christianity are two extremely similar religions. They have the same core values (as to "women repressers" - see the west less than 50 years ago) including no stealing, infidelity, lies or murder. They also share "custom" elements which predate the "religion" itself. One theory is that pork is not eaten by Mulsims as it is well known that in a hot climate the bacterial growth on and decay of pork is so fast as to lead to frequent (often unavoidable) food poisoning ("***'s punishment" perhaps?). See Judaism from the same region. In Christianity Christmas day was a pagan festival long before the arrival of Mr *****.

Only where the name of religion is abused by societal leaders to persuade others (such as "suicide bombers" or "martyrs") to commit acts which serve the aims of the leaders is religion the "cause" of war. In extreme form all religions cause war and suffering. The mass extermination of slavs by the Nazis, Jewish settlers claiming that Palestinian land is "theirs by right" and Arab Muslims claiming that killing children is justified by the Qu'ran are all examples of this.

This is just a thought....

[danny]

nilpoints has a well presented case - possibly the key word, for me at least is 'spirituality', this is what I was driving at trying to seperate religion and church - just couldn't find the right word ;-)

[Zee007]

Islam and Christianity are two extremely similar religions. They have the same core values (as to "women repressers" - see the west less than 50 years ago) including no stealing, infidelity, lies or murder. They also share "custom" elements which predate the "religion" itself. One theory is that pork is not eaten by Mulsims as it is well known that in a hot climate the bacterial growth on and decay of pork is so fast as to lead to frequent (often unavoidable) food poisoning ("***'s punishment" perhaps?). See Judaism from the same region. In Christianity Christmas day was a pagan festival long before the arrival of Mr *****.

Only where the name of religion is abused by societal leaders to persuade others (such as "suicide bombers" or "martyrs") to commit acts which serve the aims of the leaders is religion the "cause" of war. In extreme form all religions cause war and suffering. The mass extermination of slavs by the Nazis, Jewish settlers claiming that Palestinian land is "theirs by right" and Arab Muslims claiming that killing children is justified by the Qu'ran are all examples of this.

This is just a thought....

Some EXCELLENT Points.........

Well done that man...... :)

[javadude]

yea a well thought out response nilpoints.

Islam and Christianity are two extremely similar religions

Yes in some ways. Sorry if I'm wrong, perhaps a muslim here can correct me but Islam differs in that salvation is based on following the law in the qu'ran. Also over who J.esus (Isa in the Qu'ran) is. The Qu'ran (I think) teaches that he was only a prophet and that you should listen to what he said and respect anyone who follows his teaching.

The Qu'ran allows for a holy war (Fatwah?) which can be decided by someone high up in the religion. If you die in a holy war then you automatically get into heaven without all the following the law stuff. This is why some (notice I said some) muslims are keen to declare holy wars and get themselves killed while killing others.

If anything I've said is inacurate then could Zee or someone explain better, please?

[Fargo]

well done nilpoints.. excellent points.

[Zee007]

yea a well thought out response nilpoints.

Islam and Christianity are two extremely similar religions

Yes in some ways. Sorry if I'm wrong, perhaps a muslim here can correct me but Islam differs in that salvation is based on following the law in the qu'ran. Also over who J.esus (Isa in the Qu'ran) is. The Qu'ran (I think) teaches that he was only a prophet and that you should listen to what he said and respect anyone who follows his teaching.

The Qu'ran allows for a holy war (Fatwah?) which can be decided by someone high up in the religion. If you die in a holy war then you automatically get into heaven without all the following the law stuff. This is why some (notice I said some) muslims are keen to declare holy wars and get themselves killed while killing others.

If anything I've said is inacurate then could Zee or someone explain better, please?

Believe it or not Chris - we are similar...

Some points you made were indeed correct. We do follow teachings from the Qur'an, but we also respect and recognise the Bible as a Holy Book.

The point about Isa (Jes.us) is correct - he is a prophet of ours (like Noah - known as Nuh to Muslims and others). We do indeed respect all of his followers. We are taught to respect any of G.ods creations.

I have a very inetersting article at home on a conference held recently closing the divides between Christians and Muslims. It shows the similarities. I will post the link tonight.

The piece around Holy War (known as Jehad) is a tricky subject. Two points heres. Jehad is where a Muslim can fight to save his religon or land. The definition of land being owned by him and under threat of being taken unlawfully. The religon piece (as explained earlier) is if it is under threat of extinction.

Now a "Fatwa" is a ruling. A ruling can be instigated by any one of our priests (Mullas, Ayatullahs etc). This can be a simple ruling (such as it is a sin to smoke) to a ruling to kill or start a war. Depending on your Sect of Islam (of the 70 odd) and who you follow, different rulings apply.

Does this help at all Chris?

[Fidgits]

I'd just like to throw this into the mix:

Gautama Buddha lived from about 563 to 483 BCE. He was born a prince in present-day Nepal. As a member of the ruling class he lacked nothing, but like many in our present age he found that material wealth did not guarantee satisfaction. He left the life of a prince and became a wandering ascetic, studying with various teachers. Six years later, he found enlightenment after spending the night meditating under a ficus tree. For the next forty-five years he wandered the Ganges Valley of North India, teaching what he had realized.

The basic teachings of the Buddha can be summarized in the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. The essence of the Four Noble Truths is as follows:

1. Dissatisfaction is endemic to life.

2. The root of dissatisfaction is grasping.

3. Cessation of dissatisfaction (nirvana) is possible.

4. The way to nirvana is by following the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Understanding, Right Motive, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Concentration, Right Awareness, Right Meditation.

Buddhism teaches that through a cycle of rebirths you can reach Nirvana, and that each time we live a life on this earth, we are here to learn a lesson. You cannot reach Nirvana until you have learnt all the lessons.

Buddhism teaches that you must work for anything good.  To attain something as desired as nirvana, one must practice meditation, observe the required rituals, live a life free from wrong desires and actions, and perform many other traditions and works.

Buddhists do not believe in heaven or in an eternity anywhere for that matter.  They believe that by following the teaching of Buddhism strictly and leading a perfect life they will escape a cycle of rebirths and cease to exist.  This end to the soul is called Nirvana.

[javadude]

Interesting - Thanks Zee.

It prompts a question though from the bit about muslims believing that the Bible is a Holy Book. In it G.od gives Israel the land it occupies. G.od also says that he will curse anyone who is against the Israelites. So given all this why do muslim arab nations not recognise Israels right to the land?

Sorry I know it's a complex issue and there's much more to it than that.

[Zee007]

Interesting - Thanks Zee.

It prompts a question though from the bit about muslims believing that the Bible is a Holy Book. In it G.od gives Israel the land it occupies. G.od also says that he will curse anyone who is against the Israelites. So given all this why do muslim arab nations not recognise Israels right to the land?

Sorry I know it's a complex issue and there's much more to it than that.

Great question - no idea!

[Fidgits]

Well, if the bible references the Isralites, then it must refer to Palenstines, as the Jews were given Israel by the English after the war.

Over time the borders have moved, which is why there is conflict, as the Jews occupy a much larger part of the west bank than they originally did.

The key argument is over Jerusalem, being a holy place, the palestines want it all to themselves, but as it is the capital and seat of goverment to Israel, the jews do not want to give it up.

I believe all this information is correct (as it came from an Israelly recently)

[nilpoints]

One view is that the question over Isreal stems from a feeling of collective guilt at the end of the second world war. Horrified by the extent of Jewish suffering the West decided that their "final solution" was to give the Jewish people a home (and, bizarrely giving some credence to Hitler's view that the Jews were an aberration on humanity and society because they did not have a "homeland" - see Hitler's views on Gypsies etc.) Unfortunately for the Palestinians, it was Palestine.

The UK allocated a strip of land to "Isreal" with UN mandate but the borders were hopelessly indefensible against hostile (whether understandably so or not) neighbours. Over various wars Isreal as we know it today came into existence. The majority of the "disputed" land amongst non-extremists relates to land taken post 1947 by Isreali force (again whether justifiable or not) with massive and consistent US backing.

The US has consistently taken a pro-Isreali line for three simple reasons:-

1. the "Jewish lobby" in the US massively outweighs the "Arab lobby".

2. the "guilt" at the end of the second world war (all the west experienced massive anti-semetism throughout the first half of the last century).

3. the linking of the Arab world to the USSR in terms of the arms trade.

Arab hostility towards the US stems directly from the biased role taken by the US. Whilst the US was probably right in 1973 to provide assistance to preserve Isreal, the fact that today it remains so vehemently pro-Isreali in the face of Isreali behaviour has LED certain Arabs to feel that terrorism is the only way to counter such overwhelming firepower and lobbying power.

Aside from arguments about Isreal's right to exist or otherwise, I understand the most insidious behaviour from Isreal from an Arab/Palestinian perspective is that of colonisation. Isreal continues to build settlements in disputed territory which was not covered by the UN mandate. Colonisation in such circumstances has not been seen since the days of European empires and the US' western expansion. Add into this the religious element and you have a direct similarity with Northern Ireland where Scottish Protestants were used to "colonise" and "tame" Catholic Ireland.

Only when the US takes a more balanced view and role will the killing stop. Unfortunately, the US (like the UK) has historically "dug in" in the face of terrorism.

As always, both sides are wrong and both sides are right.

Just a thought...

[ifraz]

Javadude,

The reason why Muslims respect the Bible is because it has alot of truths in it which Muslims also believe in. Having said that there are also lots of things in it that is against the beliefs of Islam. Your particular question about the middle east conflict between Israel and Palestine is another huge topic which again I'm not in a position to fight this argument. Where you stated:

In it G.od gives Israel the land it occupies. G.od also says that he will curse anyone who is against the Israelites.

I was intrigued by this. I will go away and seek more knowledge on this.

Thank you for the education. ;)

Agree with Nilpoints view on Israel/Palestine conflict.

Edited January 15, 2004 by ifraz

[javadude]

So you're told that some bits are holy and some bits not? That must make life difficult! ;)

See:

Genesis 12:1-7 Covenant made with Abraham and his descendents to give him the land

Genesis 17:17-22 G.od says the covenant is established with Isaac and his descendents (ie the Israelites) and not son of maidservant, Ishmael (from which Arabs descended?)

[NaaN]

I personally think that religion is a good thing, it provides (for me anyway) a set of rules and guidelines to follow. Which I am quite happy to follow (as much as i possibly can :))

Also the fact that I am a muslim i dont believe that it is right for people to "label" me as a terrorist or categorise me in anyway, im not implying in anyway that anybody in this forum has or is, its just a personal thing that i have experienced. I personally think that everyone no matter what colour, age, religion, etc etc is equal.

In my view we were put here by g.o.d and only he is the one who should be able to take that right away.

I think it all boils down to the mis-interpretation of religion, there are many points that can be interpretted in many ways, some that are quite obviously bad yet people tend to choose this path thinking that they are "following" their religion and believe they are doing a good thing!

If some people were not so arrogant they would realise that all religions teach peace, love and compassion towards other religions.

I would just like to state that any opinions in this post are only opinons, my opinions and in no way am i referring to ANY member in this forum, be it bad or good.

You are all sound guys anyway !! :D

(doh thats my opinion again ;))

[cheekyfutch]

I personally think that everyone no matter what colour, age, religion, etc etc is equal.

But there are some people out there who think they are more 'equal' than others.

[Fargo]

I personally think that religion is a good thing, it provides (for me anyway) a set of rules and guidelines to follow. Which I am quite happy to follow (as much as i possibly can :))

To me, an athiest, Infidel, whatever :P i do not need guidelines set down by a religion to live my life by, other than those that have been instille dinme by my parents, common courtesy, respect the law, respect others,, and as someone mentioned before, if everyone had this view albeit with out religion then i think some suffering in the name of the man upstairs could be avoided.

[NaaN]

To me, an athiest, Infidel, whatever  i do not need guidelines set down by a religion to live my life by, other than those that have been instille dinme by my parents, common courtesy, respect the law, respect others

What you are saying is correct i think, but what you have to realise is that where did your parents learn from, and their parents, and their parents.

Of course man(and woman) was not civilised as few thousand years ago, as they are now (if you can call it civilised.........maybe i should have said a "little" bit more civilised)

So obviously religion has come through the stages of time and got to where it is now, some people still choose to respect it and follow it, whereas some dont. (which is their personal choice, i have no qualms with anybody over this, whether they are religious or not)

So i guess what i am really saying is that there certainly was a point for having a religion, during some piont in time otherwise it would not be here at all and we would all be

an athiest, Infidel

lol :D

[Fargo]

i wouldnt agree with the parents parents parents etc train of thought though, i cant believe that everyone was religious,, yeh there was the old worship of sun, moon, grass, tress, plants you name it, early man probally rever'ed it..but is that religion...