Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[wharfhouse]

Here's another account of the diabolical experience of using an EV for what is a journey which any ICE car would take in it's stride and how it costs more than an ICE to do a type of journey that many of us might do regularly.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/motoring/motoring-features/how-easy-charge-electric-car-25989706.amp

[wharfhouse]

This is the best the government can come up with to try and persuade people to move to EVs... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plan-for-smart-electric-vehicle-ev-charging-could-save-consumers-up-to-1000-a-year

And along with BritishVolt going into administration the same day... 

[08ISF]

8 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

This is the best the government can come up with to try and persuade people to move to EVs... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plan-for-smart-electric-vehicle-ev-charging-could-save-consumers-up-to-1000-a-year

This document is a classic case of "fur coat and no kn*****s" . It says nothing and makes no real commitment. £16M is about 50p for every car in the country. £16 Billion would be nearer the mark. Lamp posts for charging - yes fine, the odd one can carry the load, plug every car in the street into a lamp post and there's going to be a very big bang. These people appear to be totally clueless!

[Linas.P]

It seems we didn't even need duty to be added... it is already more expensive than petrol.

Now obviously EVangelist argument would be - but how often you do 350miles... and it is kind of fair point, but likewise - I just don't need to care about this BS when driving ICEV. If I need to drive to airport in the morning and I have empty tank I don't need to stress about it at all... I pop into the station for 2 minutes on the way to airport and I have another 300, 400, 500 miles of range!

The thing is - life is unpredictable, people may drive 40 miles a day on average, but then you friend calls you and ask for favour to pick them-up from airport.. which isn't much maybe 55miles x2, then you comeback home and charger fails for some reason day before you were planning to go to seaside.. which is 120miles x2... that is IT... you suddenly can't do it, or you have to stop twice to use fast public charging at double the cost!

Add winter, heating, summer and air conditioning, driving at night, some music is playing and suddenly all the 300mile range BEVs turns into 150mile range... and 150miles are not very far at all. 

[Harrier Man]

47 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

This is the best the government can come up with to try and persuade people to move to EVs... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plan-for-smart-electric-vehicle-ev-charging-could-save-consumers-up-to-1000-a-year

And along with BritishVolt going into administration the same day... 

Utter claptrap that is 10 years too late, says little and will achieve even less. These people think that if they include the word 'smart' in front of their drivel that we we all jump up and down with joy with a big smile on our face.

[Mr Vlad]

Yes BritishVolt going bang, sorry for the pun, and all because the government said the investment infrastructure wasn't up to scratch. 

That was an excellent example of how we're better off in our petrol/diesel cars. And shame on Volvo claiming 55-60 more range than actual? 

[Harrier Man]

1 hour ago, wharfhouse said:

Here's another account of the diabolical experience of using an EV for what is a journey which any ICE car would take in it's stride and how it costs more than an ICE to do a type of journey that many of us might do regularly.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/motoring/motoring-features/how-easy-charge-electric-car-25989706.amp

Pretty fair report with plenty of statistics to digest. Makes me feel very happy with my decision to buy the excellent Lexus NX 450h+

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Yes BritishVolt going bang, sorry for the pun, and all because the government said the investment infrastructure wasn't up to scratch. 

That was an excellent example of how we're better off in our petrol/diesel cars. And shame on Volvo claiming 55-60 more range than actual? 

I wouldn't say it is Volvo problem... it is BEV problem. Heated seats, headlights, music, AC basically comes for free in ICEV, for BEV they significantly reduce the range... and if it is cold then the Battery capacity becomes smaller (physics) - so the 55-60 miles lower range is just reality. What Volvo says is just best case scenario in perfect conditions and they are not wrong, the car can do that range, but it has to be war summer, but not too warm, you should not have lights on, you should not have music on and definitely you should not have heater on... and ideally you don't exceed 50MPH... 

I mean even in ICEV we know AC cost a little bit and higher speeds uses little bit more fuel... but because range isn't a problem and refuelling is completely not a problem we willing to pay for comfort... in BEV you can pay as much as you like, but you still stuck for hours charging it in middle of nowhere. It is just inherent with BEV.

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, Mr Vlad said:

And shame on Volvo claiming 55-60 more range than actual? 

It's not the manufacturers fault, it's the regulators. WLTP doesn't produce results that are real world realistic for BEVs but it is what they have to publish.

38 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Heated seats, headlights, music, AC basically comes for free in ICEV, for BEV they significantly reduce the range

Heating and AC are the big ones. Using heated seats rather than full cabin heating drastically reduced Battery consumption. Lights use very little, estimated to be around 0.5 mile range lost per hour of usage. Audio system would be almost too small to measure - a tiny amount unless you have fitted a high end aftermarket system and run it at full volume all the time.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It's not the manufacturers fault, it's the regulators. WLTP doesn't produce results that are real world realistic for BEVs but it is what they have to publish.

Heating and AC are the big ones. Using heated seats rather than full cabin heating drastically reduced battery consumption. Lights use very little, estimated to be around 0.5 mile range lost per hour of usage. Audio system would be almost too small to measure - a tiny amount unless you have fitted a high end aftermarket system and run it at full volume all the time.

But it is not like the claimed ranges is not achievable at all... so we can't only blame WLTP. If they said 276Miles or whatever then I actually believe that this is more or less achievable in certain circumstances (I believe carwow does consistent range tests for most of new BEVs and that data is available). I think it is rather understanding the technology and what impacts the range... and that something as simple as colder winter day could have massive impact.

Even on ICEV AC increases the consumption and it could be debated by how much, but for example we are not used to think about heating as a problem... it just comes free as by-product... NOT in BEV!

As for audio system - sure that is not going to be the biggest impact, but premium factory systems comes at 1000-1500W and even if not played at maximum volume they could easily get to say 300-500W (I guess I just like my music loud). LED lights... yes that would be minor thing 10-20W maybe... 

Anyway my point was - if one drives BEV like ICEV without considering all these things, then they can easily drop range by 30%... and by the end of 200miles trip having the music on vs. not having the it on could be the difference between getting home and running out of power 4 miles short. Of course driving in cold or hot car for the same distance could have difference of 40 miles, so I am not trying to equate it... but we just don't think about such things in ICEVs at all. 

[Mr Vlad]

I've just watched this video with great interest. What do you think?

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

Thanks for your input Colin with you having the UX300E. Your input I see as valuable. 

As for the range figures of the Volvo yes it's the WLTP that matters so my likkul mistake I suppose.

Oh yes Car WOW do some very good videos if actually illegal. Law states if you drive to a destination knowingly you're going to run out of 'juice' you can be prosecuted. But what they do is fun and factual. 

[Linas.P]

20 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

if actually illegal

Only if causes danger to other road users (aka results in careless or dangerous driving), as well on particular roads where you not allowed to stop (tunnels, bridges), or if it causes obstruction. At least that is the case for cars, I assume different for HGVs.

[Mr Vlad]

Wish I'd have seen this video months ago but what a corker. Enjoy.

 

 

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Wish I'd have seen this video months ago but what a corker. Enjoy.

 

 

I don't want to take credit or be overly smug about it... but I have raised all these topics for years. The facts were in the open for those looking... the difference now is that now people with larger following started making videos about it, but the points all remain the same. I mean it is very nice to see and people with influence started talking about it and hopefully this will reach the point where government will have to abandon their dangerous and completely unjustified ban on ICEVs by 2030, but still nothing is really new in the video. Sure the number may have moved over the time - last time I checked and with data which was available the transportation was 10% and cars were 24% of that, perhaps that has changed now to 16% and 45% respectively (especially with developing countries continuing to develop e.g. in China car ownership increased 10 fold between 2012 and 2022, so expect that to have impact), but nothing has changed fundamentally - ok previously getting rid of all cars would have left 97% of the problem, now it leaves 93% of the problem (be it we still need to check on sources and years to see what numbers we quoting). Point we getting to - cars are not the issue to begin with and this witch hunt was never justified!

Hopefully this view will become mainstream soon!

To the same topic:

 

[H3XME]

21 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Here's another account of the diabolical experience of using an EV for what is a journey which any ICE car would take in it's stride and how it costs more than an ICE to do a type of journey that many of us might do regularly.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/motoring/motoring-features/how-easy-charge-electric-car-25989706.amp

This article should be everywhere. Car magazines, car websites etc. They should share this to make people realise how cost ineffective these cars are right now.. 

[H3XME]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

 

 

This is well said. What the government should do, is not to encourage people to buy EVs, but instead get people interested in studying, trying to figure out a solution / find a way to a greener energy. But yeah that's not gonna happen because they can't make money off it. 

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, H3XME said:

This is well said. What the government should do, is not to encourage people to buy EVs, but instead get people interested in studying, trying to figure out a solution / find a way to a greener energy. But yeah that's not gonna happen because they can't make money off it. 

Indeed - simple understanding about what truly impact the pollution would go the long way.

I take for example myself... yes I drive petrol car and I may even get 5L V8 at some point, yet I am confident that my carbon emissions as person are comparably low for "westerner". I don't buy fast fashion, when I buy clothes it is usually small number and rarely, but good quality and they last long time. I don't buy cheap electronics - if I buy electronics I buy high-end and it lasts me 10 years or more. I generally don't buy anything that is cheap, poor quality and disposable. I don't waste food - drives my GF mad, but I take a lot of care planning ahead with what we eating and we often have argument where I say "I don't care that you don't want X to eat tonight, it is expiring in 2 days and it means that is what we will eat - if you didn't want to eat it , then you shouldn't have bought it in the first place". Most of stuff I have I always try to fix, or I even buy based on how repairable it is and only rarely I throw stuff away... and all these things matters because the food production and manufacturing of goods is what causes most of pollution - not driving the cars!

And I do not have kids, but I am sure they would hate me LOL... no cheap toys that they buy here and brake around the corner and throw away... but at least in UK that is extremely popular and very bad habit - parents buy kids cheap toys "because kids brake them anyway"... NOPE - you broke the toy, means you won't get another one for months - next time be more careful... end of story. And I am not saying kids toys is what is causing climate change, but it is causing consumer "throw away culture", they don't learn to take care of things as kids and they don't take care of their belongings as adults.

The whole EV non-sense is just misdirection of the problem, I would argue it even makes it worse, because now people can justify being bad at consuming things just because "they offset their pollution with BEV"... NO they didn't! It is like a "guilt sink", the only problem that it is false!

[Mr Vlad]

I knew you'd like that video I posted Linas. That one you posted just brilliant. That should reach some places and have a positive effect hopefully. 

[wharfhouse]

The media are starting to report the cracks in the EV white wash. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/18/how-energy-crisis-ran-electric-cars-road/

I find it amusing when the latest moan is it's too expensive to recharge at public EV points and the government should reduce vat on public charging - I'm thinking wait until they transfer the equivalent of fuel duty to them to make the tax take maths work...!

[Linas.P]

55 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

The media are starting to report the cracks in the EV white wash. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/18/how-energy-crisis-ran-electric-cars-road/

I find it amusing when the latest moan is it's too expensive to recharge at public EV points and the government should reduce vat on public charging - I'm thinking wait until they transfer the equivalent of fuel duty to them to make the tax take maths work...!

Imagine is we would say - petrol is too expensive, maybe remove fuel duty altogether, that is before we even touch VAT! What do you expect - BEV owners feels like they they some sort of heroes saving the planet...

[Spark plug]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Indeed - simple understanding about what truly impact the pollution would go the long way.

I take for example myself... yes I drive petrol car and I may even get 5L V8 at some point, yet I am confident that my carbon emissions as person are comparably low for "westerner". I don't buy fast fashion, when I buy clothes it is usually small number and rarely, but good quality and they last long time. I don't buy cheap electronics - if I buy electronics I buy high-end and it lasts me 10 years or more. I generally don't buy anything that is cheap, poor quality and disposable. I don't waste food - drives my GF mad, but I take a lot of care planning ahead with what we eating and we often have argument where I say "I don't care that you don't want X to eat tonight, it is expiring in 2 days and it means that is what we will eat - if you didn't want to eat it , then you shouldn't have bought it in the first place". Most of stuff I have I always try to fix, or I even buy based on how repairable it is and only rarely I throw stuff away... and all these things matters because the food production and manufacturing of goods is what causes most of pollution - not driving the cars!

And I do not have kids, but I am sure they would hate me LOL... no cheap toys that they buy here and brake around the corner and throw away... but at least in UK that is extremely popular and very bad habit - parents buy kids cheap toys "because kids brake them anyway"... NOPE - you broke the toy, means you won't get another one for months - next time be more careful... end of story. And I am not saying kids toys is what is causing climate change, but it is causing consumer "throw away culture", they don't learn to take care of things as kids and they don't take care of their belongings as adults.

The whole EV non-sense is just misdirection of the problem, I would argue it even makes it worse, because now people can justify being bad at consuming things just because "they offset their pollution with BEV"... NO they didn't! It is like a "guilt sink", the only problem that it is false!

Well said I agree with you 100%

[Mr Vlad]

Blimey what a coincidence from the Telegraph story to the story that the founder and CEO of Cazoo is stepping down and going to close some outlets and staff. 

[Mr Vlad]

Has anyone seen the video I posted on Malcs thread re hydrogen car? From Top Gear. Very interesting how Hyundai are looking very much into hydrogen power. Look below 

 

 

[ALAW]

On 1/18/2023 at 2:54 PM, Linas.P said:

I don't want to take credit or be overly smug about it... but I have raised all these topics for years. The facts were in the open for those looking... the difference now is that now people with larger following started making videos about it, but the points all remain the same. I mean it is very nice to see and people with influence started talking about it and hopefully this will reach the point where government will have to abandon their dangerous and completely unjustified ban on ICEVs by 2030, but still nothing is really new in the video. Sure the number may have moved over the time - last time I checked and with data which was available the transportation was 10% and cars were 24% of that, perhaps that has changed now to 16% and 45% respectively (especially with developing countries continuing to develop e.g. in China car ownership increased 10 fold between 2012 and 2022, so expect that to have impact), but nothing has changed fundamentally - ok previously getting rid of all cars would have left 97% of the problem, now it leaves 93% of the problem (be it we still need to check on sources and years to see what numbers we quoting). Point we getting to - cars are not the issue to begin with and this witch hunt was never justified!

Hopefully this view will become mainstream soon!

To the same topic:

 

I saw this only last week Linas its quite good isnt it.