Lexus RZ revealed

[SSUR]

I agree with Rayaans.

I love Lexus as it is a niche premium brand, my LS is extremely exclusive in a sea of bland S classes (mostly unrefined diesels) and Teslas and I just love it!

Went for a drive in a friend's brand new Tesla Models S recently.  Amazing tech screen etc but not for me as I am old school and love listening to CDs on the Mark Levinson audiophile system which even gets close in parts to my home audiophile set up.  All I want is comfort, quietness, refinement, smoothness and top build quality.  On all these points the S cannot get close to the LS.  I have heard from many people that the cheaper Model 3 has poor noise insulation so I would not bother wasting my time even test driving one as no refinement is no go for me! 

For example, the new S had two rattles, the air ride did not float like the LS, the interior build was not a patch on the LS.  BUT, I suspect it is deliberately set up to be more sporty and overall the ride was commendable with a fine balance but just not the extreme comfort of the LS.  Having said that, I do really respect Tesla for their innovation as a tech company and shaking up the car market as they have done.  They have paved their own way, they appeal to the tech crowd and clearly their customers are different and prefer tech to craving the outright quality and class of a Lexus.  In contrast, Tesla is about relatively cheaper company car/pcp purchases which are essentially 3 year renewals.

Oh did I mention the consistently outstanding experience of the Lexus dealer network which is another reason I keep up my repeat purchases over all these years.  I like paying for outstanding customer experience where the Lexus dealers take time and trouble to know me and treat me like a respected individual.  I know I will not have this level of service at the German brands as they are very much mass market.  I also do not actually know where I can go to even drive a Tesla but I have not exactly bothered researching.  Each to their own and we should all respect that..       

 

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, SSUR said:

Each to their own and we should all respect that..       

Absolutely correct but the reality is cars are expensive to develop, and EVs increasingly so. Aiming to become a small market player like say Aston Martin leaves you very vulnerable, and let's not forget Lexus is essentially Toyota, the mass market is what funds Lexus as a company.

There is absolutely zero chance Lexus cab come close to competing with Tesla in any way or form interms of software integration. In a world where we are all use to banking, shopping etc using or mobile, gain instant access to data/features, having most likely your most expensive purchase after a house been isolated from the rest of your phone/information interoperability will become increasing unacceptable to most consumers.

I can now see just how much, where, and when I have put electricity into my EV. This functionality 'appeared' about 2 months ago, and new data/functionality is constantlu been added......Will Lexus offer this level of software integration with the RZ? Is it really acceptable for a £50k+ product to be less accessible/connected digitally than a £80 hoover??

If you want Lexus to survive and continue to offer their USP of build quality, you need to be urging Lexus/Toyota to get in the game of software integration. VAG gets it, BMW gets it. 

The RZ is OK as an EV, but given it there isn't a delivery date, and everyone is coming out with EVs, been just OK really isn't good enough for a company the size of Toyota.

https://insideevs.com/news/581461/vw-catch-tesla-software-plans/

 

[ganzoom]

3 hours ago, Spock66 said:

And also the dealer experience and after sales service which Lexus scores highly on.

Again the Tesla approach is totally different. Why on earth do you want to waste resource and time with a third party rather than deal directly with the vendor?

Tesla's direct sales approach is been copied by nearly everyone. When I do my car off for a 'service' I didn't even need to leave my key with anyone, as Tesla could access the car without having my key. When the work was done I got a txt, and the invoice/payment was done straight on the phone app.

The 'old world' of doing things is fine, but its expensive, resource intensive, and for a lot of people these days (my self included) pointless.

I suspect Lexus as a brand will increasingly appeal to only a certain age group of consumers, which is fine. But if the brand cannot attract younger customers the future looks pretty bleak.

The RZ (and future EVs) is chance for Lexus to attract new interest, but there is very little the RZ offers that would take customers away from the likes of Tesla.

We have Lexus in the family, on the whole I like reliable cars, our Tesla has been the most unreliable car I have owned. However what Tesla offers interms of technology is simply too good resist/ignore. Our next car will 100% not be a RZ, but almost certainly another Tesla. 

[rayaans]

24 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Again the Tesla approach is totally different. Why on earth do you want to waste resource and time with a third party rather than deal directly with the vendor?

Tesla's direct sales approach is been copied by nearly everyone. When I do my car off for a 'service' I didn't even need to leave my key with anyone, as Tesla could access the car without having my key. When the work was done I got a txt, and the invoice/payment was done straight on the phone app.

The 'old world' of doing things is fine, but its expensive, resource intensive, and for a lot of people these days (my self included) pointless.

I suspect Lexus as a brand will increasingly appeal to only a certain age group of consumers, which is fine. But if the brand cannot attract younger customers the future looks pretty bleak.

The RZ (and future EVs) is chance for Lexus to attract new interest, but there is very little the RZ offers that would take customers away from the likes of Tesla.

Yet their customer service is still abysmal. It should be amazing if dealing with the manufacturer directly. Unfortunately, just because you're dealing with the vendor rather than a third party, it doesnt mean anything in the real world. 

You mention not dropping your key off for a service. Well you had to drop your car off for a service so how much hardship is it to give them the key? Its all a bit of a gimmick. Last time I had a service Lexus picked up my car and dropped it off. I didnt even need to pay them as it was all included in the service plan. I really dont see the advantage here.

Young buyers will almost always flock to BMW/VAG/Merc. They're so backwards that you have to drop the car off and leave it or wait there. They have a waiting list of over a month for a courtesy car and yet they're sales aren't really affected. Go figure?

The screenshot of the app you showed, what advantage does that provide? Its not like I check how much im spending on fuel and where so why would I bother to check how much and where I am on charging? Most people dont look at these pointless things - car needs fuel, they fill it up to how much they can afford or fill the tank.

Its like my home charging app for the UXe - I dont check it, theres simply no point. It needs charging, it gets charged, simple as that.

The NX and RZ including future models will have OTA updates for the software although we dont know to what extent.

[dutchie01]

4 hours ago, rayaans said:

Certainly. 

Premium is all about the feel of the vehicle. The materials used, the quality of the damping, the NVH, the alignment of the doors etc. Tesla falls heavily behind on these main areas of what a premium vehicle should be. 

Last time I checked Mercedes have been using some renault engines in their vehicles, Audi uses the same engines as a Skoda or VW. 

Like I said, the Audi Q4 uses a much inferior powertrain to the RZ for suspected similiar cost. Is that not a premium vehicle? Sales numbers are one thing, but dont confuse that with being premium, otherwise the Ford Fiesta would be the most premium of them all for a long time.

Take the IS300h - do you drive around thinking "oh heck, this is an inferior powertrain compared to the BMW 330e, Mercedes C300e"? Did you buy it thinking that the BMW 320d in the real world is faster, probably more economical and has better steering?

Because I certainly dont get into my RX and think it needs to have a twin turbocharged V6 plug in hybrid whilst im driving around.

Interesting. I agree and dont agree Rayaan. What is "premium"?

For me premium is a mix of all that makes a great car, buildquality, design, reliability, choice of materials but also engine drivetrain handling. The IS250 had a special feeling like no other car in its class. The smooth silent six pot and the extreme buildquality made it work. The IS300H was much less a "Lexus" to me everything seemed one step lower and i would not say it was premium. Exclusive yes but not premium it just had more toyota than lexus in its dna. 

I drove the lower end mercedes A/GLA/CLA as rentals and they dont feel premium to me, the engines are too slow and rough and they are way too expensive for what you get. Same with the Audi Q4 had it for a day and also that to me is not premium. Hard plastics, cheap materials, below average performance, hilarious range. Your RX does feel premium to me it has thesame IS250 feeling the wonderful engine the buildquality and so on. Yes that is premium , For Me.

But for my children a KIA Picanto is premium. Look dad! it has apple car play and a back up camera! For my neighbours the Tesla model 3 is premium, they have 2 (!) and these are not companycars, they love them to bits.

I have been an enthusiastic SAAB owner for many years and in the end it was more like a select group of elderly gentlemen telling each other how intelligent and good their cars were, but nobody else bought them. In the case of Lexus of course this is different beeing part of the big Toyota corporation and very successfull in the states but i really wonder how the brand will position itself in the EV era. within 2 years a whole avalanche of models will hit the market and i really hope the Lexus DNA will survive. 

  

 

 

 

 

[Barry14UK]

As regard makers of cars that were largely limited to premium cars, nearly all have either ceased production, like Bristol for example, or gone from one crises to another with support from other manufacturers or wealthy individuals/groups such as Aston Martin, or been taken over like Rolls Royce and Bentley by BMW and VW respectively or Maserati added to the Fiat Group just as some examples. Some manufactures other than just acquiring premium brands have set up a more elite representation using group technology and funding.  The last two aspects have become increasingly important due to the high cost of research and development of their higher priced models, and the main reason why small output prestige model  only stand alone car manufacturers could not complete. 

So manufactures enjoy the kudos of an acquired  premium name or an up market  range formed under another name for a smaller number of sales but this is supported by the funds of all the larger selling group.  It remains a subject of argument as to which models from different manufacturers can be described as premium or is it just because a manufacturer is considered a premium one all it's models are considered so?  Tesla have developed and incorporated more advanced technology but many would not consider they are  premium cars due to shortcomings elsewhere, although outselling competitors in their sector.

Whether the RZ with it's introductory specification will be regarded as premium remains to be seen, although it's price is likely to be so. 

[ganzoom]

12 hours ago, rayaans said:

You mention not dropping your key off for a service. Well you had to drop your car off for a service so how much hardship is it to give them the key? Its all a bit of a gimmick.

This is where you probably don't understand why Tesla stock is valued at more than Toyota, BMW, VAG combined.....What happens if you don't even need to drive the car to the service station? Instead the car can do it for you? How about the car now driving it self to service workshop at midnight, and returns it self to your drive way the next day?

The prerequisite to that is the ability to 'unlock', 'start' the car remotely, all without the owners input. Building this level of integration into the firmware requires huge foward planning.

It's the same with charging stats. We all know which way energy costs are going. In the future variable rate energy traiffs will be in abundance, yes you can try and control the charging to get the best cost via the charger, but its actually much easier to do from the car, for which you need the prerequisite data.

As I mentioned before you just need to look at the DfT website about watching TV in autmonouns vehicles. The only car that I know which can run iPlayer/YouTube etc direct from the infotainment system is a Tesla. 

Everything Tesla had done so far in software development is focused on ensuring future relevance.

You work in the NHS, so you will know how antiqued and utterly useless our IT systems are. But plenty of people seem to 'happy' to carry on as before, the reality is though through vertical software integration you can bring so much more efficiency and safety. However you need to fundamentally ensure the base code of the software aligns with future interoperability standards. SysmOne, EMIS Web DON'T, they aren't FHIR complinant, are not ready for cloud hosting etc. To prepare these systems for future interoperability is going to require a rewrite of the entire base code which is going to be massive task.

The future of cars is not what Lexus/Toyota have been doing since inception. Its taken Lexus/Toyota this long to even just buy into EV development, which for everyone else is already 'done'. Tesla/VAG/Merc are now simply scalling up production. 

The next stage is software, all the 'gimmicks' to you are signs of a company that knows how to manage and develop software at a pace that Lexus/Toyota I suspect don't even understand let alone can match.

If Lexus wants to remain relevant they better do something better than the RZ. Look at Jaguar, the iPace came out years ago, the press loved it, 'Tesla killer' was mentioned more than once, but now Jaguar on the brink of bankruptcy. Just building a 'premium' EV really doesn’t cut it these days. The EV drivetrain levels the playing fields for driving refinement, so you need a USP. What's Toyotas USP versus Mercedes/BMW etc?

 

[ganzoom]

11 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

But for my children a KIA Picanto is premium. Look dad! it has apple car play and a back up camera!

  

 

 

 

 

And I suspect show them the inside of any Tesla and no Lexus will every get a look in when considering future car purchases!!

Children are our future, how many children do you see getting excited about seeing/owning a Lexus? 

The EVs Lexus produces now and in future has to excit and engage the future generation. Software is key, do you know whats utter mad about Teslas approach?

By integrating a morden webrowser into the car and enabling USB control bus, I can actually run F1 2020 via Stadia in the car........it will actually work even whilst driving!!! No need for a massively complex local CPU/GPU, just a data connection. Tesla didn't design the system with this use in mind, but that what technology is actually about, its the users/third parties who can realise the potential of the systems. This is why software integration is the future, the potential for a car to be so much more than just getting from A to B is massive.

 

[ganzoom]

This is the latest development of FSD beta in the US, European development is due to start this year. Our 2016 build date Tesla will/can run this software, what's the chance the 2022-23-24 or even 2025 build RZ will do anything close to this?

 

[talaipwros]

15 hours ago, ganzoom said:

 Is it really acceptable for a £50k+ product to be less accessible/connected digitally than a £80 hoover??
 

Is it really acceptable for a £50k+ product to market as its  unique point of sales, an £80 hoover functionality?

[talaipwros]

2 hours ago, ganzoom said:

This is the latest development of FSD beta in the US, European development is due to start this year. Our 2016 build date Tesla will/can run this software, what's the chance the 2022-23-24 or even 2025 build RZ will do anything close to this?

 

this video is quite dissapointing actually. He keeps on touching and correcting the steering, most of the functionality looks the same as my 5 years old BMW

[Boxbrownie]

7 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

Is it really acceptable for a £50k+ product to market as its  unique point of sales, an £80 hoover functionality?

What a ridiculous statement.

[Spock66]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

This is the latest development of FSD beta in the US, European development is due to start this year. Our 2016 build date Tesla will/can run this software, what's the chance the 2022-23-24 or even 2025 build RZ will do anything close to this?

Personally speaking owning a fully autonomous vehicle has zero attraction to me.

[ColinBarber]

On 4/23/2022 at 2:00 PM, dutchie01 said:

Tesla is outselling Lexus in the UK 3 to 1. So in that aspect you can turn it around by saying Lexus is nowhere near a proper contender to Tesla.

I agree with cabin quality etc but it seems it doesnt really matter anymore. Yes, to us enthusiasts that can admire the engineering behind an IS 250 glovebox or the 100% perfect stitching of the leather. Tesla customers dont care. They buy their car for other reasons. Range, software, power, handling, chargernetwork.

So far i cannot see Lexus making the slightest dent in the Tesla sales as the above items are just not there. The new Lexus EV will remain a niche product.

 

Over 4 to 1 these days with just 2 models available, and growing every quarter.

You are correct, Lexus won't make any dent in Tesla sales - but at the moment it doesn't really matter as all EVs are constrained by manufacturing - they could all sell more. What is relevant to Lexus is they need to have EV options available before the world moves on and their hybrid sales drop without EVs available to take their place. They will either continue to be a niche player, or an extinct one.

[SSUR]

I believe Lexus have promised a plethora of new EV only models in the coming 2/3 years so we will see what their long term game is.

[First_Lexus]

I’ve watched and read this thread with great interest. Before I start, I’ll note that what I write here is an opinion based on a full day of looking at electric cars today from all the main contenders. This isn’t for me, rather it’s for my Brother-in-law and Sister, to replace a Range Rover. They want to go EV. I have no real axe to grind for any brand - neither do they - but they do like my RX. They know I’ve been very happy with Lexus. They’ve never owned a Lexus. I certainly didn’t influence the decision and was there to provide opinion and balance.

Criteria - must be SUV style, AWD, maximum price £100k but sweet spot £60-80k. As long as range is 200 miles on a full charge that’s fine.

First to Volvo. XC40 a bit too small, that’s their only current option. Nice interior though. Next, Mercedes. A very impressive buying experience and the various EQB  and EQC were nice, especially the EQC. However, the rear seat space was too tight in the EQC, and the EQB as a seven seater was ugly with a much cheaper interior. After a brief flirtation with a Ford Mustang, onto Tesla…

I must express an interest here. My BIL owns two Model 3 for his company, and liked the look of the Model Y and X. However, the experience with quality hasn’t been faultless. This was my first time up close with Tesla, and I have to say the build quality is ‘iffy’ to say the least. I fully accept that not everybody will agree, but that’s what I found. Interior plastics and panel gaps were poor, and some of the finishing was outright terrible. Looking at 1-2 year old examples for sale there and they hadn’t worn well, which is his experience. I’m sure the tech is great, but there are too many gimmicks imho. 

Then to Porsche for the Taycan Turismo. Now this is an impressive thing, but by far the most expensive option and with a scary option list! It was a contender, but the image is a bit of a problem - I’ll leave it at that - and with a decent spec the price was almost at the £100k. Close, but no cigar.

Another review of options followed. Audi and BMW discounted due to previous poor experiences. Jaguar I-Pace is well known to us both through close acquaintances, but range isn’t great and build is patchy (to be polite!).

And the final decision? A Lexus RZ ordered online for early 2023 delivery. Lexus called within 90 seconds of the web order being placed to run through the details. What swung it? Perceived quality - based on my RX and previous NX - along with a good estimated price at about £70k, and the promise of excellent customer service. The fact that it’s more traditional and less like an Iphone was also a big selling point. 

So there you go. A real buying experience, by real people who actually wanted to spend money and buy an EV. Everybody will make different decisions and for different reasons, but that’s why they made the decision they did. Let’s hope they like it when they get to test drive it!

 

[Barry14UK]

 

2 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

I’ve watched and read this thread with great interest. Before I start, I’ll note that what I write here is an opinion based on a full day of looking at electric cars today from all the main contenders. This isn’t for me, rather it’s for my Brother-in-law and Sister, to replace a Range Rover. They want to go EV. I have no real axe to grind for any brand - neither do they - but they do like my RX. They know I’ve been very happy with Lexus. They’ve never owned a Lexus. I certainly didn’t influence the decision and was there to provide opinion and balance.

Criteria - must be SUV style, AWD, maximum price £100k but sweet spot £60-80k. As long as range is 200 miles on a full charge that’s fine.

First to Volvo. XC40 a bit too small, that’s their only current option. Nice interior though. Next, Mercedes. A very impressive buying experience and the various EQB  and EQC were nice, especially the EQC. However, the rear seat space was too tight in the EQC, and the EQB as a seven seater was ugly with a much cheaper interior. After a brief flirtation with a Ford Mustang, onto Tesla…

I must express an interest here. My BIL owns two Model 3 for his company, and liked the look of the Model Y and X. However, the experience with quality hasn’t been faultless. This was my first time up close with Tesla, and I have to say the build quality is ‘iffy’ to say the least. I fully accept that not everybody will agree, but that’s what I found. Interior plastics and panel gaps were poor, and some of the finishing was outright terrible. Looking at 1-2 year old examples for sale there and they hadn’t worn well, which is his experience. I’m sure the tech is great, but there are too many gimmicks imho. 

Then to Porsche for the Taycan Turismo. Now this is an impressive thing, but by far the most expensive option and with a scary option list! It was a contender, but the image is a bit of a problem - I’ll leave it at that - and with a decent spec the price was almost at the £100k. Close, but no cigar.

Another review of options followed. Audi and BMW discounted due to previous poor experiences. Jaguar I-Pace is well known to us both through close acquaintances, but range isn’t great and build is patchy (to be polite!).

And the final decision? A Lexus RZ ordered online for early 2023 delivery. Lexus called within 90 seconds of the web order being placed to run through the details. What swung it? Perceived quality - based on my RX and previous NX - along with a good estimated price at about £70k, and the promise of excellent customer service. The fact that it’s more traditional and less like an iPhone was also a big selling point. 

So there you go. A real buying experience, by real people who actually wanted to spend money and buy an EV. Everybody will make different decisions and for different reasons, but that’s why they made the decision they did. Let’s hope they like it when they get to test drive it!

 

A brave decision, buying without trying or even seeing other than through eye of camera, especially for a model quite different to anything Lexus presently has sold to public. 

Wish your BIL good luck with it and we will be very interested to learn  impressions in due course.

[First_Lexus]

14 minutes ago, Barry14UK said:

 

A brave decision, buying without trying or even seeing other than through eye of camera, especially for a model quite different to anything Lexus presently has sold to public. 

Wish your BIL good luck with it and we will be very interested to learn  impressions in due course.

Indeed, but…

…deposit is refundable if they don’t like it when they see and drive it. What helped was that none of the other contenders were liked or suitable for their needs. They like the look of the RZ, the range estimated at 220-250 miles is acceptable, and they know quality will be top notch. I don’t think they see it as much of a risk, but there’s an easy out if they hate it when viewed, as with many members here and the revised NX.

I don’t think they will - after all, what else would they buy having reviewed all the other options and not been that impressed with any of them!?

TBH I’m tempted myself…

[ColinBarber]

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Criteria - must be SUV style, AWD, maximum price £100k but sweet spot £60-80k. As long as range is 200 miles on a full charge that’s fine.

Which it won't be in real life. Winter rain on the motorway and you won't see 150 miles.

[rayaans]

12 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Which it won't be in real life. Winter rain on the motorway and you won't see 150 miles.

The UXe does 160 miles minimum no matter what the weather is. I regularly used it in winter with everything on so on that regard it probably would

[Barry14UK]

3 hours ago, rayaans said:

The UXe does 160 miles minimum no matter what the weather is. I regularly used it in winter with everything on so on that regard it probably would

But expect RZ will be heavy and certainly with a lot more power than the UXe.  It has been  conceded that it will have less range than the similar but lower powered Toyota BZ4 models.

Agreed that if BIL and your sister find it does not meet their expectations, they should not find it difficult to sell as when available demand is likely to exceed early supply.

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Barry14UK said:

But expect RZ will be heavy and certainly with a lot more power than the UXe.  It has been  conceded that it will have less range than the similar but lower powered Toyota BZ4 models.

Agreed that if BIL and your sister find it does not meet their expectations, they should not find it difficult to sell as when available demand is likely to exceed early supply.

It's also got a 31% larger Battery. Lexus estimates 225 miles but seems some sources have reported this as 250 miles. 

Tbh the RZ looks to have a freakishly similar Battery size to the Audi E-tron 50 Quattro yet it's 3.2s faster to 62mph and estimated to have more range. 

[First_Lexus]

11 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Which it won't be in real life. Winter rain on the motorway and you won't see 150 miles.

What I found really interesting were the comments of the EV ‘specialist’ salesmen at each manufacturer. I’m the first to admit that I don’t understand what is ‘fact’, what is ‘opinion’ and what is - frankly - ‘snake oil’ when it comes to EVs as I’ve read so many contradictory opinions (and I’m deliberately not referring to them as facts!).

However, there were common themes. Most opined that the latest batteries would deliver ‘about’ 80% of the quoted maximum range even at motorway speeds and at temperatures below 9c (I’ll come back to that in a moment). They also all agreed that modern batteries should still deliver 90% of their maximum capacity after 7-10 years. I’d hope that Lexus falls into the ‘latest tech’ category for batteries on the RZ.

A couple of the salesmen also claimed that their EV software optimises Battery range and performance for different temperatures depending on the market. Mercedes put this at 9c for the UK. One of the others put it at 10c (I forget which, we saw so many). Truth or partial truth or snake oil? I don’t know.

They also all stated that the ‘WLTP’ range calculations were now far more accurate than once they were, which is why ‘earlier tech’ vehicles such as the I-Pace and Leaf had such discrepancies, which were now being corrected. The Porsche - depending on options - has a claimed range of 198 miles. They noted that they’d ‘never’ seen it below 180 miles delivered even when driven hard in cold weather. TBF the others ALL made similar claims.

The only manufacturer who wouldn’t discuss range was Tesla. They simply referenced the numbers on their website as they were far more interested in selling their brand and the tech options in the interior. That’s interesting in itself as they didn’t seem to think they needed to discuss range - perhaps unsurprising as they have the longest claimed of any of the options, albeit the Model Y is quite a bit smaller than the others as well as a bit cheaper.

The bottom line here is that the ‘200 mile’ range wanted for purchase is an arbitrary figure, just because they want the option of longer range if needed. Most of the time the RZ will do a maximum of thirty miles a day, and not on the motorway either. They also have at least two other vehicles at their disposal with petrol and diesel power so the risk is pretty limited.

I’m fascinated to see how it works in the real world tbh. And the buying experience, for somebody who isn’t a technology expert (and neither are they) was also intriguing given the various claims made. I did feel the salesmen were sincere - I was quite impressed with all of them - but I’m sure this thread will tell me that what they were stating was all rubbish! 

[ColinBarber]

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

What I found really interesting were the comments of the EV ‘specialist’ salesmen at each manufacturer. I’m the first to admit that I don’t understand what is ‘fact’, what is ‘opinion’ and what is - frankly - ‘snake oil’ when it comes to EVs as I’ve read so many contradictory opinions (and I’m deliberately not referring to them as facts!).

However, there were common themes. Most opined that the latest batteries would deliver ‘about’ 80% of the quoted maximum range even at motorway speeds and at temperatures below 9c (I’ll come back to that in a moment). They also all agreed that modern batteries should still deliver 90% of their maximum capacity after 7-10 years. I’d hope that Lexus falls into the ‘latest tech’ category for batteries on the RZ.

A couple of the salesmen also claimed that their EV software optimises battery range and performance for different temperatures depending on the market. Mercedes put this at 9c for the UK. One of the others put it at 10c (I forget which, we saw so many). Truth or partial truth or snake oil? I don’t know.

They also all stated that the ‘WLTP’ range calculations were now far more accurate than once they were, which is why ‘earlier tech’ vehicles such as the I-Pace and Leaf had such discrepancies, which were now being corrected. The Porsche - depending on options - has a claimed range of 198 miles. They noted that they’d ‘never’ seen it below 180 miles delivered even when driven hard in cold weather. TBF the others ALL made similar claims.

The only manufacturer who wouldn’t discuss range was Tesla. They simply referenced the numbers on their website as they were far more interested in selling their brand and the tech options in the interior. That’s interesting in itself as they didn’t seem to think they needed to discuss range - perhaps unsurprising as they have the longest claimed of any of the options, albeit the Model Y is quite a bit smaller than the others as well as a bit cheaper.

The bottom line here is that the ‘200 mile’ range wanted for purchase is an arbitrary figure, just because they want the option of longer range if needed. Most of the time the RZ will do a maximum of thirty miles a day, and not on the motorway either. They also have at least two other vehicles at their disposal with petrol and diesel power so the risk is pretty limited.

I’m fascinated to see how it works in the real world tbh. And the buying experience, for somebody who isn’t a technology expert (and neither are they) was also intriguing given the various claims made. I did feel the salesmen were sincere - I was quite impressed with all of them - but I’m sure this thread will tell me that what they were stating was all rubbish! 

I'm not sure 90% after 10 years is realistic but the way manufacturers get around this is to have batteries with a higher capacity than they state and then eat into this buffer as the Battery ages. To the owner I guess it doesn't really matter as they only see a 10% drop. Most of that degradation is actually just age, what is know as calendar ageing, rather than usage so there is little the owner can do other that avoid having the average state of charge too high which accelerates this.

The WLTP thing is interesting. The test is the test, there is shouldn't be anything the manufactures can do about it - the whole point is that it provides a way to compare vehicles, rather than to give an accurate real world range. So I don't really understand Porsche essentially understating their WLTP range so owners get real world figures close to their test figure - it just makes it more difficult to compare them against the competition.

In the winter Porsche seem to suffer a 20% range drop, who are one of the best, and the average seems to be around 30%, with Ford and others even worse than that. But it is speed that is the killer - on a motorway if you stick to 70 mph then you will get good range, but if you are one of the thousands of people that drive at 85 mph then you won't get anywhere close to a manufacture's range figure.

[rayaans]

Some initial reviews are in. Looks like the Yoke is very well judged and the overall vehicle is up to usual Lexus standards 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/road-tests/357875/new-lexus-rz-450e-prototype-review

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motor1.com/reviews/583148/2022-lexus-rz450e-prototype-first-drive/amp/